Rational Emotive Behavioural Therapy: The Evolution of a Revolution: Interview With Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis, Work Partner and Wife of Dr. Albert Ellis, the Creator of REBT.

Recognized as one of the most influential thinkers and psychologists, Albert Ellis PhD (1913-2007) revolutionized Psychology when he created the first cognitive psychotherapy, Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy. After he passed away, Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis continues spreading his legacy around the world. Psychologist, lecturer, writer, trainer, she dedicates her life to disseminate REBT and extend it through different statements, from the social to the educational, from the academic to the clinical. In this interview, she goes through her own history and her husband’s one, bringing us closer to understanding Albert Ellis as the leading figure in his field, and the oneness they experienced through their professional and personal relationship.

Debbie Joffe Ellis: The woman who holds Albert Ellis's hand is a human being, who admires the scientist, respects the person and loves the man.
Al and I shared the same values and the same interests. There was a huge age difference and yet it was irrelevant. We had a similar sense of humor. We loved helping other people and teaching them how to help themselves. We loved teaching and writing. We loved spreading REBT so that people could learn how to help themselves. We both were passionate about one another. We believed in what we did. We shared study and work. We shared life. and firemen could come there anytime to get some food or drink. I would sometimes serve the food or clear the tables, and would mainly be there to listen to and to talk to the people. Many of them were in a strange emotional zone of stoicism for getting the work done, looking for bodies, dealing with seeing shocking things like body parts or burned toys of children, and people's shoes and torn clothing and other things that were so upsetting. As the weeks went on, they were more exhausted at times. For some of them shock had changed to anger. I did not sit and give formal "therapy", but would be there for them, be with them, listen and care, and encourage any who wanted to talk to share, and when we found it appropriate we would talk about ways they could feel less angry or depressed or overwhelmed.
During that time, I was also helping my husband who was working with little rest. Several clients wanted to change their session's in-person into phone ones because they were afraid of taking public transportation. We still gave our regular Friday Night Workshops, and he also gave a talk on terrorism, discussing with the audience on what REBT could do to help people and possibly reduce their rage and panic and fear about terrorism. They were very intense days and we were working hard together. And we loved doing so. We were inseparable after our relationship began. Our bond became stronger and finally we married. We had an enormous amount in common. We cherished life. I still do. I am grateful for my life and the good things in it. What brings me a great joy is to contribute to others, and I find very gratifying for me when I give presentations, and workshops and demonstrations. Like Al, I find happiness helping people to discover happiness through REBT and its tools. Ellis & Rovira 9 Debbie Joffe Ellis: REBT stands for Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy and it is the pioneering cognitive approach in Psychology and Counseling and Therapy. My husband was really the first one to challenge Freud in the nineteen forties and the nineteen fifties. At that time -at least in America -Freud was the "God" of the Psychology universe or Psychiatry. My husband studied at Columbia University and at that time, he had no choice but to study Freud and Psychoanalysis and to practice it with people. And as he did that, he noticed that some people were feeling better but they were not getting better, they were not getting to the root of the issue in order that they could stop creating their emotional suffering and start practicing healthy thinking and behavior.
So more and more he became active-directive with his clients, and he would give them homework and he would give them the idea that they were responsible for creating their own emotions. They discussed what was creating emotional disturbance and was unhelpful to get their goals. So bit by bit, he was developing his approach in what in the beginning was called Rational Therapy, after it became Rational Emotive Therapy and in 1993 he put in the "B" for behavior: REBT.
Montse Rovira: He founded REBT, which was a revolution in the field of Psychology and Psychotherapy breaking with all the classical approaches, isn't it?
Debbie Joffe Ellis: Yes. Al established the premises of a new therapeutic model that broke with the traditional work between client and therapist, with the classical approach to mental and emotional disturbances and with the methodology to solve them. An essential aspect of the cognitive revolution pioneered by my husband is: "It is not what happens or outer circumstances that create our emotions, but the way we perceive those events and circumstances".
Montse Rovira: What would you in your role as psychologist do with me if a suicide pilot crashes his plane into a building and kills my loved ones?

Debbie Joffe Ellis:
The approach that I would use with you would be similar to the one I would use with anyone losing loved ones in both such tragic -and also non tragic -circumstances. Grief is grief, whether it has added to it shock from unexpected and brutal death of loved ones, or their death after a long illness when it is not unexpected. I would provide listening, empathy, caring. At an appropriate time, we would discuss the fact that death is an inevitable part of life, and though we are deprived without our loved ones, we can choose to focus on our love of them, and to also focus on what still is good in our lives.
[Suddenly I realize that these words are pronounced by a woman who lost her beloved husband, and more recently her mother, and yet she makes the effort to focus on the good things she still has in her life.] Debbie Joffe Ellis: Many people don't know that they have a choice in how they feel. Some demand help from a therapist without realizing that they can themselves create changes in their feelings and thinking after they learn how to do so. A good therapist explains the reasons why they feel badly and teach them the tools to practice for the creation of healthy thinking and feeling and behaving. My husband realized that when we are aware of our irrational, illogical and unhelpful thoughts we have taken the first step on the path to achieve the change, but we have to be persistent in our efforts. Being aware of our irrational beliefs is the first step. Then comes the disputing, followed by the creation of effective new ideas and beliefs.
Montse Rovira: Several researches on neuroscience assure that a high percentage of mental functions are unconscious. How can we dispute and change our automatic thoughts if we are not aware of them?
Debbie Joffe Ellis: I will give you an example. Some therapists do dream work, they analyze them. Can you see? You can even use dreams to stimulate the discussion and identify some of the irrational beliefs.
So let's ask: have you ever had some of these irrational beliefs in your conscious life? You see? REBT is not afraid of anything. It can be used in any situation, to look at any emotion, any thought, no matter wherever it comes from. A session starts from the present and may look to create healthy goals for the future. If you change your cognition, emotions and behaviors will also change.
"When we change our mind, we also change our brain" Einstein. But let's go back to neuroplasticity. Al gave people homework and said "do it for thirty days". He had the intuition that this was an appropriate period to install new habits, both behavioral and mental ones. Now research supports that 30 days is a good period of time to affect the synaptic behavior in the brain. Today that's obvious, but for him it was only a supposition, an intuition, a vision. New cognitive habits really create new mental routes, brain's morphology changes. If we are persistent these new routes become stronger, and the old ones weaken or are extinguished. A very good example is that person who says "I'm a new man, completely different than I used to be". In fact, it is the same person with new brain circuits, more rational. This rational way of thinking provides healthy emotions and effective behaviors to achieve goals. Isn't it prodigious? Ellis & Rovira 13

Montse
Al had a huge sense of humor. This is another of his unique qualities which he integrated into his methodology.
He loved to write lyrics of songs and in his workshops, he and attendees together would sing his Rational Emotive Songs. Singing and music stimulate some parts of the brain. So yes, he didn't call it neuroplasticity, the research wasn't there, but he was already encouraging principles and actions which affect the psychology and physiology of the brain.
"It is irrational to think that everybody will always act in a rational way" Interview 14 wonder if I'm going to see Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis again, but immediately I say to myself that that's an unhelpful question, and absurd way to concern about the future. I come back to the present and tell her the only words that come up my mind: "Thank you Debbie".]

Epilog
Six decades have passed by since REBT was presented to the American Psychological Association. Dr. Joffe Ellis has explained through her professional and personal relationship with Dr. Albert Ellis, how REBT was originated, which were the main theoretical sources of it, its methodological bases and its protocols. How it has been developed from an initial version focused on cognitive processes to the holistic dimension that it already has, taking into account cognition, emotions and behavior as inherent aspects of human being, which interconnection has to be considered as the main goal of psychotherapy. The pioneer cognitive overturn that Dr. Albert Ellis gave to Psychology has developed into a "School of Thinking" and its influence goes beyond the strictly clinical field.
For further information see: www.debbiejoffeellis.com and Ellis and Ellis (2011). For a Clinical Demonstration of REBT: see the DVD, released in 2014, by Debbie Joffe Ellis: Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, produced by the American Psychological Association, Washington DC (Ellis, 2014).

Funding
The authors have no funding to report.