Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba As Gathered During a Field Research in Shirdi and Other Locales in October-November 1985

The interviews and original audio recordings comprised in this volume are the outcome of a field research to Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh which I conducted in OctoberNovember 1985 for the preparation of my BA thesis on the life and teachings of the Indian saint Sai Baba of Shirdi (d. 1918), which I discussed in June 1987 at the Ca’ Foscari University of Venice, Italy. In Shirdi and surrounding areas, I was accompanied by a local interpreter who led me from house to house and who translated the words of my respondents from Marāṭhī into English. The interviews of each day are preceded by excerpts taken from my personal diary.

Professors Franco Michelini Tocci and Mario Piantelli, carefully studying all the books and articles I could find on the saint -both primary and secondary sources, mostly in English -as well as on the history and religious culture of Maharashtra up to modern times. In particular, I analyzed with utmost care a book edited by B.V. Narasimhaswami culling Sai Baba's utterances titled Sri Sai Baba's Charters and Sayings. With a Foreword by M.B. Rege (Madras: All India Sai Samaj, 1942 4 ), which I also translated into Italian. I was twenty-three years old at the time and, though I had a basic knowledge of Hindī, I didn't know Marāṭhī. The help of Dr. Mahesh Jaiswal -Hindī lecturer at Ca' Foscari University who was also familiar with Marāṭhī -was invaluable in order to clarify numerous points both prior and after my trip. A dear friend, Dr. Jaiswal encouraged me from the very beginning of this project.
Though I had already been twice to India, this was my very first field research. With the aid of my Professors, I had carefully prepared a list of questions -arranged in order of priority -to ask the old villagers, hoping I could still find someone who had known Sai Baba in his/her youth and could share his/her precious memories about him. However, once I arrived in Shirdi and began my daily conversations with the local people -always obtaining their prior informed consent -I realized that the best way to go was to let them speak of whatever they thought to be important, without asking any preordained set of questions. Thus, I preferred to ask open-ended questions, so as to let them say whatever they wished to relate about their own experiences and reminiscences of Sai Baba: I wished to listen to their own insider perspective and enter into their world. I opted for unstructured or semi-structured interviews, these being more like conversations than formal interviews, even allowing the topic of the talk to abruptly change in the direction the respondent wished to take it. Besides interviewing the old men who had direct experiences with the saint, I took pains to record the memories of various other people in and around Shirdi. By interviewing widely, I wished to document the complexity of the issues involved as well as to uncover points of agreement and disagreement among the interviewees.
I must point out that I had received no prior training as an anthropologist or oral historian, though I was familiar with a few theoretical works written by some leading anthropologists that my Professors had advised me to rely upon. During the talks my inexperience as an interviewer emerged, and more than once I made the mistake of asking leading questions, i.e. questions that subtly prompted the respondents to answer in a particular way. This is something that should generally be avoided since the interviewees are encouraged to say what they think the interviewer would like them to say. I sometimes craved for answers to specific questions from my respondents. A case in point was my insistence on Sai Baba's upadeśa or teachings, which was something I very much wanted to know about from the old villagers so as to confirm or refute the information I had come across in both primary and secondary sources. The people of Shirdi, however, had little or no interest in discussing the topic of the saint's teachings, primarily because their relation with him was not of an intellectual kind but a very downto-earth one, with no reference to philosophic or theological issues but to their daily needs and practical concerns.
And yet, even when I pressed my respondents by asking them presuming questions, I was often rewarded with unexpected, most interesting replies.
Moreover, there were circumstances when such 'forceful' questions were quite necessary to make the interviewees comfortable enough to answer honestly, without him/her trying to avoid them altogether, such as when I asked if Sai Baba had had any heir or successor or if he was either a Hindu or a Muslim. In such cases, I still think that leading or presuming questions were the only way to go.
In order to capture the straightforwardness of the original conversations I have deliberately avoided burdening them with a critical apparatus. At the same time, in order to make the English transcriptions of the interviews more readable I have not hesitated to make linguistic and grammatical adjustments such as rendering incomplete phrases with complete sentences, always being careful to remain faithful to their inteded meaning.
The biodata of the people I interviewed -some of whom are well-known to Sai Baba devotees -have been reduced to the bare essentials and likewise the footnotes, the main purpose of which is to explain the meaning of certain Sanskrit and Marāṭhī words and to offer bibliographical references to some of the most significant accounts given by my informants. With few exceptions, in order to preserve the immediacy of the conversations I chose not to load them with details on the various individuals who are mentioned in the talks. I also chose to avoid the use of diacritical marks in the case of personal names and names of places. Whenever I obtained my informants' permission, I took their photos, usually at the end of the conversations. around 16 hours altogether! I am totally exhausted and given accommodation by a clerk of the Shirdi Organization, the Sansthān, in a small room of a lodging for pilgrims located near the main temple of the Samādhi Mandir, where Sai Baba's tomb is venerated. Grateful for having reached Sai Baba's abode safely on the very day of the saint's demise (October 15, 1918) I go to bed around midnight. 3 Among other things, during my stay in Khamgaon I visited the ashram and school of Pandhe Guruji, eighty-seven years old, a local teacher and a fine sculpture who was a staunch follower of M.K. Gandhi's ideals of truth and nonviolence and also of his khādī practice, i.e. the domestic production of hand-spun cloth as a means to achieve swadeshi or independence (Gandhi passed through Khamgaon at least twice during his satyāgraha campaigns and apparently Pandhe Guruji knew him well). I also visited the small ashram dedicated to Dattātreya of Panchlegaonkar Maharaj, believed to exercise perfect control over snakes through his powerful mantras (their poison is extracted for preparing āyurvedic medicines) and who actually met Sai Baba when he was about ten years old. He also met Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba two or three times and had personal interviews with him at Puttaparthi. Unfortunately Panchlegaonkar Maharaj, who was around eighty-eight years old, was in Nagpur at the time and thus I couldn't talk to him. At his ashram I was garlanded with cobras since the guru's inmates insisted that it would be auspicious for my research trip. There were plenty of snakes around Khamgaon: on the day of my arrival a cobra was found near my bungalow and for safety reasons a mongoose was placed in my room during the night. While I was there I also visited the big and well-kept ashram of Gajanan Maharaj (d. 1910), which is located in Shegaon, only 15 km away from Khamgaon. The cleanliness of the place with its bright orange walls and the intense devotion of the numerous bhaktas made a strong impression on me. The śaiva ascetic Gajanan Maharaj is very popular in the area and in the whole of the Vidarbha region, being venerated as a great saint and miracle-worker. There seems to have been a connection between Gajanan Maharaj and Sai Baba. The day he passed away in Shegaon, Sai Baba, in Shirdi, is said to have exclaimed: "My Gajanan is gone". After yesterday's long journey this morning I took it easy, rested a while, and also had a good meal. Must be very careful with the water: I either drink bottled water (Bisleri) or coconut water which is good and safe. Unfortunately, due to the crowds there are lots of noises, even at night. There is a continuous flow of pilgrims and devotees coming from all over India who bring their offerings (flowers, garlands, food, etcetera) to Sai Baba's tomb or samādhi. 5:30 p.m. Met with Swami Shekhar Rao and made a tentative schedule with him. I shall first of all interview the four old villagers who knew Sai Baba. We will go visit them in their houses, at least one per day, starting with the son of Shyama Deshpande and the son of Mhalsapati. On the fifth day we shall go visit Sakuri. On subsequent days, I shall interview other people who live here and are old devotees of Sai Baba, though they never met him in person. I will try to do all interviews in the morning and to do research work at the library in the afternoon. For reasons of safety, Swami Shekhar Rao recommends me to lock the door of my room at all times. Apparently there are thieves around, especially at this time of the year, there being all these crowds. Now the people of the Sansthān say that I may be allowed to stay in this room until Sunday. We will see.

Figure 8
The entrance to the masjid, which Sai Baba at some point renamed Dvārakāmāī

Figure 9
The perpetual fire of the dhūnī inside the masjid. The sacred ash or udī supplied to devotees is obtained from this dhūnī Figure 10 The stone on which Sai Baba used to sit inside the masjid Figure 11 The hearth where Sai Baba used to cook inside the masjid ble, first-hand information on Sai Baba and is in the whole of India the most qualified person to offer precise and detailed news on Sai Baba's life. I will certainly do my best to see him once I return to Bombay.
Baldev Girme and his kind wife have proposed to accompany me and Swami Shekhar Rao to Sakuri to visit Sati Godavari Mataji's ashram, since they are now celebrating some special yajñas 4 there. I have gladly accepted. My impression is that this young couple of Kopargaon has great respect for me and my work and that they will further help me in my research. Significantly, one of the first things that Mr. Girme asked me -like several other Indians before him -is if I am married. When I answered "no", he seemed disappointed. This typical question and reaction always puts me in an awkward position, as if I should in some way excuse myself for not being (yet!) married. He then insisted that I should get married soon and come back to India with my wife and children.
Mr. Girme told me that he also doesn't like all the noise that there is in Shirdi since it spoils its spiritual atmosphere. He says he comes here especially to silently meditate at the masjid, where Sai Baba's famous portrait is, and at the cāvaḍī, 5 places which he believes are filled with spiritual vibrations. I also noted that the spiritual atmosphere at the masjid is stronger than at the Samādhi Mandir. At the mosque and at the cāvaḍī one feels a presence. I must return there.
Uddhao is a wonderful man. He has worked for forty years for the Sansthān totally for free, in obedience to his father's last wish. In his house he treasures various items which Sai Baba gave to Shyama among which is a statue of Gaṇapati which he daily worships with the chanting of mantras, the burning of incense sticks, etcetera. What struck me is that at one point of our conversation Uddhao said that for him Sai Baba is Sākṣāt Bhagavān, 'God in bodily form'. He underlined that he feels his presence constantly, at all times. 12 p.m. Reached Sakuri's ashram which is just few miles away from Shirdi around 11:15. It is a very tranquil and clean place. The difference with Shirdi is striking: whereas Shirdi is a noisy pilgrimage centre bustling with people, with long lines for entering inside the Samādhi Mandir, here there is a great silence and just few people around. The main building and the small temples (such as the Dattātreya temple) are well-kept. In particular, the cage or pinjrā in which Upasni Maharaj secluded himself for quite a long time made a strong impression on me.
I briefly interviewed an old man who lives here, Mr. Gorawke, who explained to me the significance and functioning of the sacrifices, the yajñas. The nuns or kanyās are performing one of these solemn sacrifices right now. Had the darshan 6 of Sati Godavari Mataji. 7 She gives me the impression of being an austere, self-denying woman, i.e. not easily approachable and somewhat intimidating. Perhaps this afternoon I will get a chance to talk to her. This afternoon I should be able to meet with a man of the local Sansthān who I am told wrote his thesis on Upasni Maharaj. 4 Sacrifices. A generic term referring to Vedic rituals. 5 A rural assembly hall.
6 'Looking at', 'viewing'. The transformative experience of seeing a holy person or a deity and being seen by him/her. 6 p.m. Had quite a long conversation with Shri S.N. Tipnis, who is the secretary and administrator of the Śrī Upāsnī Kanyākumārī Sthān, which however I could not tape. He has been an inmate of the Sakuri ashram for the past forty years and is a bright intellectual who holds an MA and a PhD from the Deccan College Post-Graduate and Research Institute of Pune. He insisted with me on the need for a critical and rational study of Sai Baba's life and teachings, based upon reliable sources. He advised me to get detailed information from the Sai Baba Sansthān on the spread of Sai Baba's cult, both in India and throughout the world. He emphasized how Upasni Maharaj was Sai Baba's closest disciple. He said that Sai Baba's 'current' and power was lavished upon him, and subsequently Upasni Maharaj transmitted it to Sati Godavari Mataji: this was the line of succession, the guruparamparā.
He warned that an equally careful study should be made of Upasni Maharaj and Sati Godavari Mataji. He defined her as a great saint who is one with God, the heir of Upasni Maharaj as per the latter's explicit declaration and appointment. Shri S.N. Tipnis narrated to me episodes of Sati Godavari Mataji's purported power or śakti: a story involving a German fellow named Peter and another one of a devotee of Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba who had been directed by the latter to find solace at Sati Godavari Mataji's feet. Moreover he told me that Swami Muktananda, 8 before attaining enlightenment, stayed for about six months here in Sakuri at the Dattātreya temple. Apparently, he felt drawn to this place.
Had a long darshan of Sati Godavari Mataji. It was a beautiful experience, which lasted more than half an hour. There were lots of mantra recitations to Viṣṇu-Kṛṣṇa during a Kṛṣṇa pūjā that was celebrated in public by Sati Godavari Mataji herself, which is a rare occurrence. Could not have an interview with her, however, she being too busy with the yajña performance. I certainly plan to come back here some other day: the place is highly spiritual, silent and isolated. In this way I'll be able to get some more books on Upasni Maharaj and perhaps will have a chance of meeting Sati Godavari Mataji.
I have been told wonderful things on Swami Ram Baba by Baldev Girme, and I must definitely meet him. I have been given two different addresses of his in Bombay: one is 9, Sheesh Mahal, 5-A, Pali Hill, Behind Macrnoells Roof Garden, Bandra, Bombay -400 050, Phone: 533526; the other is c/o Shri Ashok Raheja 72, La Emerade 14th Road, Khar, Bombay -400 052, Phone: 546274. Will have to inquire on where he is staying. Mr. Girme told me that Sai Baba once appeared to Swami Ram Baba while he was hospitalised. The doctors had given up hope on him but he recovered immediately thanks to Sai Baba's healing touch. 10 p.m. Today was a most intense and fruitful day. Thanks to Baldev Girme, this evening I had the fortune of meeting and interviewing another interesting person whose name is Shri Appa Saheb Borawke (Tukaram Raghujiv Borawke, usually spelt Borawake), a tall and lean man of profound spirituality who is also one of the twenty-two trustees of the Shirdi Sansthān (he is a prominent figure being the second in the list of trustees I was able to see,
First conversation with Uddhavrao (Uddhao) Madhavrao Deshpande, seventy-nine years old, son of the deceased Madhavrao Deshpande alias Shyama (d. 1944) who was among the closest devotees of Sai Baba, often acting as his intermediary. 11 Uddhavrao and his wife were most hospitable, offering me and my interpreter Swami Shekhar Rao and Mr. Baldev Girme and his wife of Kopargaon a good cup of tea (cāy). Q Could you tell me what were your first experiences with Baba? A When Baba took mahāsamādhi 12 I was twelve years old. Q What do you remember about him? A Baba was only five foot and three inches tall, although he appeared to be quite taller. However, when his height was measured, that is what it was. Baba was very loving with me and all the children around him and even played with us. 13 He often called me and gave me things or took something from me. During the whole day I was near Baba, with him at the masjid; he would often talk to me and we would have a good time together. Baba always wore a long white robe, never colored ones; this white robe is called kafnī. Baba always took his bath using the water from the village well. He often took his bath at the masjid sitting on a big stone, while continuing to speak with whoever was present. He sat on a big stone which is still visible there. 14 Baba had a very big mole on his shoulder. He had a slight, trimmed beard. Once a week, a barber would come to the masjid and shave Baba. Baba had no hair, that is, he shaved his head. As per the Hindu custom, his ears were pierced. His complexion was light, and his skin sort of yellowish; there was a particular brightness, a radiance emanating from his body. Q Could you tell me about Baba's teachings? A To all people, to devotees as well as villagers, Baba only recommended the practice of saying the name of God, nāmasmaraṇ. Sometimes, he recommended the reading of sacred texts such as the Viṣṇusahasranām, the Rāmāyaṇ, and the Bhagavadgītā. Q Do you recall any particular episodes with Baba? A At that time, Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, one of the Congress leaders, came to Shirdi to meet Baba. 15 From Shirdi, Tilak wanted to go to Yeola, a small town just near Manmad. But Baba told him: "Don't go to Yeola; rather, proceed directly to Manmad". There were riots going on in Yeola and that's why Baba told him: "Don't go to Yeola". Tilak had faith in Baba's words and so he went straight to Manmad without stopping in Yeola. From Manmad, he then got a train for Bombay. 16 At that time, there was an old man named Bapusaheb Jog. Every morning, he used to come to Baba after he had taken his bath, and with his own hand he would mark Baba's forehead with the sign of the svastik. 17 After doing this, Bapusaheb Jog would place the belpatri upon Baba's forehead, that is, he would offer him the bel leaves which are sacred to god Śiva, Śaṅkarjī. Q What were Baba's habits? A Baba used to sleep alternatively one night at the masjid and one night at the cāvaḍī. He usually didn't allow anybody to enter inside the cāvaḍī, and to ladies the entrance was absolutely forbidden. It is so even today. Baba used to take a full, complete bath every day, either at the masjid or at the Leṇḍī baug. 18 Occasionally he would wear a pītāmbar cloth, that is, a yellow silk cloth. There was a piece of cloth that was used to wrap Baba's head in. Baba himself wrapped it around his head with the end piece dangling to his left side. Q Did Baba use to bless people? In which ways did he bless them? A Rarely did Baba touch a person in blessing. He rather blessed people by making an assuring gesture with his hand, that is, by keeping his hand in a particular mudrā. Baba always used to give udī 19 to his devotees as a token of his blessings, and sometimes he himself would put it on their foreheads. Blessings and udī were the same thing to the devotees, the tangible expression of his grace. Q Is it true that Baba very much insisted that his devotees should cultivate śraddhā, faith, and saburī, patience? A Yes, Baba told to devotees and people in general to have śraddhā and saburī, faith and patience. He made this recommendation very often. Q Did Baba recommend surrender to the guru? A Baba used to say words such as Allāh Mālik, Rām Mālik, or the names of Viṣṇu and Śiva. Baba always did this. Baba never read any book nor he ever left this village of Shirdi. He only went sometimes as far as Nimgaon, few miles to the right of Shirdi, or to Rahata, about six miles to the left of Shirdi. 19 The sacred ash which Sai Baba got from his perpetually burning fire (dhūnī). In the niche is the statue of Gaṇapati that Sai Baba donated to Madhavrao Deshpande alias Shyama, Uddhavrao's father Q Is it true that Baba never gave mantra or upadeś 20 to anyone? A Yes, Baba never gave neither mantra nor upadeś to anyone. Baba only gave āśīrvād, that is, blessings, and nothing else. Q What about Baba's origins? A So many people and devotees were asking Baba who his parents were, from where he came from, etcetera. Once Baba said: "My mother is from Saptaśṛṅgī". Now, Saptaśṛṅgī is the sacred place of Devī, the Goddess. And Baba added: "My father is Śiva, Śaṅkarjī from Tryambak". Tryambak or Tryambakeshvar is the famous place where Śiva's jyotirliṅga 21 is worshipped. Baba also told his devotees that it was of no importance to know about his origins. The profound significance was this: he came from God. It is for this reason that Bapusaheb Jog used to put the three horizontal marks on Baba's forehead, which are Śiva's symbol. When Baba was standing straight, his arms were so long that his hands reached his knees and even beyond; this is called jānubāhu. Q Could you tell me about Baba's daily routine? A In the morning, Baba used to leave the masjid around 8 a.m. and wandered in the jungle till about 10. 22 Then he began to beg for food and alms, as he always did. He would only go to certain houses, that is, to four or five houses of the village, that's all. When doing this, Baba  Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 25-52 cried "Mā bhākrīān", which means: 'Mother, give me some bread'. He then returned to the masjid and always sat near the fire of the dhūnī. 23 Q Could people enter freely inside the masjid to see Baba or were there any restrictions? A Everybody could come, without distinction. Everybody had free access to the masjid. Q Could you tell me about Baba's miraculous powers? A So many devotees were coming at that time to Baba and they would tell him: "Baba, I have no children", or: "I'm alone", etcetera. So they asked him to bless them, so that they could have issue or fulfil whatever their wish was. Then Baba used to bless them by making a sign with his hand and arm. Sometimes he would give a woman a coconut as a token of his grace: this meant that she would soon become pregnant and have offspring.  24 Moneylender.

Figure 16
The Leṇḍī gardens at dawn, where Sai Baba used to take walks. In front is the Nanda Deep or 'Lamp of Bliss' (between the nīm and bodhi trees which were planted by Sai Baba), to the right is the Dattātreya shrine this Gaṇapati is still here in our house [he points at it] and every day we perform the pūjā 25 to it with great devotion. Q What were Baba's teachings to you? A [laughing] No teaching; Baba used to simply bless me. He never gave me any particular teaching. Shyama, my father, was like Baba's right hand and was associated with him for nearly forty years. He was a mediator, an intermediary between Baba and the other devotees. Whatever difficulties the devotees had, Baba used to ask Shyama to help them out. Q Was there a special reason for Sai Baba's request of dakṣiṇā? 26 A Baba used to ask for certain amounts of money from his devotees as offerings, which he then gave away to the poor people at the end of the day. Whatever the amount he received during the day, he distributed it among the poor. Q Were there any special teachings that Sai Baba gave your father? A No, Baba didn't give any special teaching as such to my father. My father Shyama used to give medicines to devotees, along with Baba's udī. Q Was he a doctor? A No, he wasn't a doctor. But he used to give āyurvedic medicines to the needy who were sick, and always added Baba's udī. My father's faith impelled him to do so. In a very simple way, he used to give the medicines together with the udī, while reciting the name of Sai Baba, and the patient used to get relief. It was not that Baba told my father to do this; he did it on his own initiative, moved by his faith. My father Shyama, just before dying, told me that I should serve Baba without taking any money from the Sansthān. He wanted me to serve Baba freely, without material compensation. This I have done all my life, for about forty years, without taking a single paisā 27 from the Sansthān. Only service and nothing else. This is what my father recommended me to do and this is what I have done. My father thought that this was the most important thing I should do. Q Could you tell me something about Upasni Maharaj? A Upasni Maharaj was always staying at the Khaṇḍobā temple. He was very close to Baba. After his first meeting with Baba, he went to live at the Khaṇḍobā temple. Q What kind of rituals were there in Sai Baba's times? A During Baba's times, according to my memory, only two ārtīs were performed: one at 5 a.m., the kākaḍ ārtī, and the other one at midday, the noon ārtī. Between 4 and 5 p.m., there were kīrtans. Q What did Baba do at the closing of the ārtī? A He gave blessings and distributed the udī. He also conversed with some of the people that were present there. Q Did Sai Baba himself sing the kīrtans? A No, he never sang. He sat and listened. Q What was the most important festival which was held in Sai Baba's days?
A The most important festival celebrated during Baba's times was Rāmanavamī. 28 Q Were there many Muslims devotees in those days? A Many Muslims came to Shirdi to have Baba's darshan. Some of them lived here, had a close relationship with Baba and used to serve him personally. For example, there were Faqir Baba, Maulana Baba, and Abdul Baba. They were with Baba all the time. There was also another Muslim devotee, by name Bighubai. Q Are there many Muslim devotees even today? A Even today Muslims come here to worship Baba, inside the temple. Q In which way did Muslims worship Baba during his life? A Simply by touching his feet; nothing else. The relations between Hindus and Muslims were cordial in his time. Q Is it true that for a long time Sai Baba refused being worshipped like a god? A Yes, it is true. 29 But after some time things changed. There was a certain Das Ganu Maharaj 30 who used to worship his feet only. Das Ganu's example was then followed by many and his worship increased and became common practice. Afterward, when Baba took samādhi, his worship became more and more ostentatious. Q Why do you think Baba didn't want to be worshipped? A I don't know. Q What does Sai Baba represent for you? Who is he? A Baba is Sākṣāt Bhagavān, God in bodily form. Q Could you tell me of any particular experience that you had with Baba? A I had many experiences with Baba. I will tell you one. Once I had a debt of five hundred rupees with someone, and I didn't have even a paisā to repay it. So, while performing the pūjā of Baba in the morning I began to cry and couldn't speak. I did the pūjā in silence. I called on mentally to Baba for help, telling him I had no money to repay my debt to that fellow and asking him what to do. I was greatly worried and anguished. That very day, it so happened that one Parsi gentleman came to me and lent me five hundred rupees. I actually didn't know how much money that man had given me; it was only when I returned home that I realized he had given me exactly five hundred rupees! In this way, I was able to repay my debt. Baba knew my problem and came to my rescue. 28 The festival commemorating Rām's birth, on the ninth lunar day in the light half of the month of Caitra (March-April).
29 Sai Baba never encouraged his Hindu devotees to worship him, and for a long time resisted their plans to honor him with the daily routine of ārtīs. In fact, he came to tolerate it for the bhaktas' own sake, complying to their heartfelt devotion. In time, his acceptance of congregational worship led him to give explicit instruction to Bapusaheb Jog to take the place of Megha Shyam as the select ārtī officiant when the latter died. On occasions, however, Sai Baba felt an urge to utterly disapprove and reject all such ceremonies, even throwing away or breaking into pieces the ritual paraphernalia. The saint's apparently contradictory behavior reveals the inner tension that characterized him, being torn between his intimate refusal at being honored as a god and the bhaktas' intense desire to worship him as their deva. When I tried to trace the Parsi gentleman at the address he had given me, to give him back the loan, I discovered that the address didn't exist, and that no one in that village had ever seen the man. This is one of the innumerable līlās, i.e. wonders of Baba. Q What happened in Shirdi when Baba took samādhi? A Knowing that his death was imminent, Baba had told a few people that he was going to take samādhi shortly. At that time, about seven thousand people assembled here in Shirdi. They were all agitated and weeping, and there was intense commotion all over the place. Solemn ceremonies were held with great pomp. There was a long procession and everyone lamented and wept. It was then that Baba's body was placed in the Buti vāḍā, 31 which became the present Samādhi Mandir. From that time on, it has always been kept there. Q Could you tell me something about Meher Baba? A No, I don't know anything about him. I only know that he was here for seven years with Baba, and whenever there were ceremonies and Baba used to go out with processions and all that, he was with Baba. I Thank you so much for your kind hospitality and for sharing your precious memories with me.
Before leaving, I ask permission to take a photo of him and his wife in front of their house and they wholeheartedly agree.
[ Shri Shankar Gorawke says: As you know, yajñas are celebrated everywhere. The purpose, the intention of yajñas is that of bringing prosperity to the nation. The people who live in this country should lead a pure life, then the nation would elevate itself and good fruits would be gathered. This is possible through yajñas. Thus, people should promote the practice of yajñas. Then, there would be no more conflicts and tensions among people; among Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, etcetera. These communities should not fight among themselves. They should be one, one body all together. Each of these communities should endeavour so as to bring about the progress of our nation; India would then constitute an example for the entire world. Thus, this is the aim, the principal goal of yajñas… In this Sthān, the yajñas are celebrated by women, by the kanyās alone.
Here, no male has permission to enter in the area where the kanyās live.
Q The ancient mantras, the Vedic mantras? A In India there is no other place like this. This is the only one. Q Is it Sati Godavari Mataji who continued Upasni Baba's mission? A When Upasni was still alive, Sati Godavari came to Sakuri. She was eleven years old when she first got here. With her were two sisters, her mother and her father. Her birth-place was Shegaon. She was born there, and from there she came here to meet with Upasni Maharaj, together with her two sisters, her mother and her father. Upasni asked the girls to become kanyās and to live in Sakuri. Their mother and father promised to do so. It so happened that Sati Godavari and all her family came to live here in Sakuri. At the time, Godavari Mata was about ten, eleven years old. All her family lived here with her. Her two sisters are still living here today. Q Are they nuns? A Yes, yes. Their mother died about one and a half year ago, but she also lived here for the rest of her life. Upasni Baba's mother also lived here. Upasni was the teacher of Godavari Mata. He taught her everything: the dances, the music, the mantras, etcetera. Upasni brought here some very talented men, experts in the saṅgīt, 36 in the dances, in the mantras and they taught the kanyās. All these kanyās can sing, dance, and they are also good musicians… All the kanyās are good musicians. Q What happened when Upasni Baba died, and in which year did he die? A When he died, when he ascended to Heaven, Mataji, who had been his disciple, took care of everything, of all the Sansthān. Up to this day, she takes care of everything.
Q Could you tell me anything about the differences in Upasni Maharaj's and Godavari Mata's teachings? For example, I have read that Godavari Mata is a very sweet person, whereas Upasni Maharaj was extremely severe… A I wouldn't know how to answer this. Shri Shankar Gorawke says: Seven are the most important yajñas which are performed in Sakuri. In March, the first yāg 37 begins; it is called Śrī Rām yāg and lasts seven days. The second yāg is in April, and lasts five days. In June, the third yāg is held. It is called Guru yāg, and lasts seven days. In August, we have the fourth yāg, which is called Gaṇeś yāg. It is celebrated during the festival of Gaṇeś Caturthī, and lasts ten, twelve days. The fifth yāg is the one we are now celebrating, in October. It is named Sat Caṇḍī yāg, and lasts nine, ten days. In January, we have our sixth yāg, the Sūrya yāg, which lasts fifteenth days. It is the longest yāg which is performed here in Sakuri. The seventh yāg takes place in February and it is called Rudra yāg, which lasts five days. These are the seven yāgs which are celebrated each year in Sakuri. Q Could you tell me how much money is needed for the performance of a yāg, for instance this October yāg? A It depends on how many days it lasts and on the things which are to be employed in the sacrifice. Some yajñas last five days, others seven. Anyway, for the realization of this October yajña we have spent around eleven thousand rupees.

Figure 19
Entrance to the Śrī Upāsnī Kanyākumārī Sthān, Sakuri Appa recounts: After that, every day at 10 a.m., I have been given the right to place flowers on the samādhi of Baba. It is a big honor. There were many conflicts as to whom should be chosen to do this, but finally I was given preference, because of Sai Baba's blessing. It's now nearly forty years that I daily bring flowers to Baba's samādhi. Q Could you tell me about that more recent experience you had, which I have been hearing about around the village? A Seven or eight years ago, there came here twenty-five to thirty-two people from Delhi. They had come to Shirdi to worship Sai Baba. I used to visit the Mandir twice a day and once, when these people were there and I was performing my pūjā and ārtī, all of them started touching my feet. I was flabbergasted… I said: "Don't touch my feet but go touch Baba's feet! I am no one!" But those people didn't listen. Then they said they wanted to visit my house. So they all came here, visited the house, and the next day they came to me saying that they wanted to do my pūjā.  42 The samādhi was built by me… that is, I gave twenty to twenty-five thousand rupees to the Sansthān in order to build that samādhi. Q What do you think was the meaning of dakṣiṇā in Sai Baba's times? A Sai Baba used to take dakṣiṇā from many individuals and then he would distribute it among certain people… twenty-five rupees to one, fifty rupees to another, fifty-five rupees to yet another one, etcetera. So he would take from whoever had and give to whom did not have. T One can only come to the conclusion that he used to give dakṣiṇā to the needy, the poor.
Appa adds: At about 7:30 in the evening, Sai Baba used to distribute whatever amount of dakṣiṇā he had collected during the day. Dakṣiṇā was not asked as a means of accumulating money for himself. Sai Baba had such great powers that just by putting his hand into his pocket he could take money out of it… T He didn't want to show people his power of performing miracles. That is why he used to ask other people for dakṣiṇā. Q Was it just a symbol then? T Yes, it was symbolic… So that people would not know that he was performing a miracle and all that. Q Thus he wanted to maintain anonymity? T Right, he wanted to be anonymous. That is the correct word. Q What do you think about the origins of Shirdi Baba? Nobody knows if he was from a Muslim family or if he was from a Hindu one… T Appa will not be able to answer this question. It is a very difficult question. Nobody will satisfy you on this question… this is what I think. Q Let's try to ask him anyway… in simple words. Was Sai Baba a Hindu or a Moslem in origin? T But, you see, you must have read this in books… when this question was posed to Baba he would get very angry, would tear off his clothes and become naked… I I know, I know this… I know that the most important teaching is not to give any importance to origins… I also know it is a question nobody wants to answer… T Right… I So, I understand from what he said that Sai Baba represents the Almighty, God, for him. This seems to be implicit from what he said. T Yes, that is so. Q Have you ever heard of Meher Baba? He was a disciple of Upasni Maharaj in Sakuri… A No, I don't know anything about Meher Baba. Q Baba usually gave udī to the people when they left the village. What was the significance of udī? A [after a short coffee break] Udī had its own miraculous effect. Whenever anybody was sick, we used to give Baba's udī. The udī Baba used to give… and then we gave it to the patients or whoever was suffering or whoever was sick in the family. In the case the patient was suffering from fever, after giving him udī his fever used to vanish. I So udī had power in itself… T Yes… Q By Baba's blessing? T Yes, yes. By Baba's blessings the udī had its own power. Q Which were the most common miracles, if I may ask? T It cannot be a question… So many were the miracles. Q Do you remember any particular instance of a miracle or could you relate anything you feel to be significant for an understanding of Shirdi Sai Baba? A Sai Baba is Almighty, Īśvara, 43 the Supreme Satpuruṣa. 44 T When you'll see Swami Ram Baba, you might tell him you had an interview with Appa Borawke… He will be much pleased. Q Do you have any questions to suggest? T Well, basically if you ask me about Sai Baba, I would say that to have faith and patience was his fundamental recommendation. I fully agree with these two principles of his. Nowadays people want immediate action, they think that once they go to Baba they should get whatever they want… But I do not agree with that. You should have faith and patience. 45 Even if you go to a church and ask Jesus saying: "I pray to you, you please give me this"… You cannot take these spiritual things into a mundane, materialistic, purely commercial sphere… Q Were you present when the mahāsamādhi took place? What happened at that time? A I was not present. I was at Sasur, in school, at that time. During vacation from school, I used to come to Shirdi and take Baba's darshan. T What Appa wants to say is that it was only after Baba had taken samādhi, in the years 1943-44, when he found himself in much difficulty, that he came to Baba. By touching Baba's feet, he realized the presence of Baba, the power of Baba. Q In other words, you want to say that he experienced Sai Baba's omnipresence? T Yes, that Baba is always present. This is what Appa wants to say. Q Do you experience Baba's presence always, at all times? A Yes, I feel his presence. Q Appa is thus considered a sort of saint here in Shirdi? T He does not claim to be a saint, though many revere him as such. Swami Ram Baba will be able to tell you much more about him than me. Q Does everybody know Appa here? T Yes, everybody knows him. He is one of the trustees of the Sansthān. 45 Aruna, Baldev Girme's wife, also confided to me that the couplet of niṣṭhā and saburī, i.e. faith and patience, was the heart of Sai Baba's teaching.
Q Could you ask him if I can take a picture of him? T He daily comes at 10 a.m. to the Samādhi Mandir. So you can see him there and you may even take a photo of him. Q Thank you. Mister Appa also looks a bit like Shirdi Baba, doesn't he? T This is for you to make out… [everybody laughs] I'll tell you one thing, Mister Tony. Sai Baba will give you a personal experience so that you won't have to approach people and ask people… that is my feeling, and I only hope that Sai Baba will do something for you. I have that intuition and I have that feeling also. I I am sure that in the spiritual field words and studies are more or less useless, because it's always a matter of personal, intimate experience. In all religious or spiritual matters. T Yes, right. I I understand that these questions of mine can be considered improper, but I try to push things, even to provoke sometimes… hoping to get more information. Please thank Mister Appa Saheb Borawke and tell him that I consider it an honor to have had this opportunity of speaking with him. Thank you all.

Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba
As Gathered During a Field Research in Shirdi and Other Locales in October-November 1985

Excerpts From My Diary
12:45 p.m. Had a productive morning. I was able to interview a local villager who is eighty-seven years old and who was twenty-four when Sai Baba took samādhi. He is known as Bappa Baba and I had a good talk with him. He even showed me a coin that Sai Baba gave to him, which he treasures as a priceless relic. I then visited the house/temple of Lakshmibai Shinde: she passed away in 1963 and her tomb is located just outside her house. I had the privilege to see the nine coins that Sai Baba donated to her just few minutes before taking samādhi, which are thought to be symbolic of the nine forms or limbs (navāṅgāni) of devotion, bhakti: hearing (śravaṇa), singing (kīrtana), remembering the divine name (smaraṇa), serving the feet of the guru/God (pādasevana), worshipping him (arcana), reverently prostrating to him (vandana), becoming his slave/servant (dāsya), becoming a friend of his (sakhya), and finally surrendering oneself completely to him (ātmanivedana). Seeing the nine coins made a strong impression on me.
I also interviewed my main interpreter Swami Shekhar Rao inside the library and we had a good conversation. In total, it looks like I should be able to interview seven persons who actually met or had some kind of interaction with Sai Baba before he passed away in October 1918: six in Shirdi and one in Bombay, i.e. Swami Ram Baba.
Had a good lunch. The schedule and rhythm of the fieldwork is quite tight and I'm a bit tired. This afternoon I must go to the hotel The Pilgrim's Inn to see if they have any rooms available and also to try to change some dollars into rupees. Baldev Girme's nephew, Bipin Girme, works there. I then plan to go to the Sansthān to ask them for more information on the spread of Sai Baba's cult in India and throughout the world. Perhaps they can help me find a few more texts on Sai Baba and some old issues of the monthly magazine Sai Leela. Hope they may be collaborative and willing to share their knowledge.

4
Shirdi Friday, October 18, 1985 6:35 p.m. Found out many things this afternoon. According to a 1984 Directory of Sai Mandirs & Sai Institutions which was given to me (printed by a Shirdi Sai Mission located in Hyderabad, presided by one M. Rangachari), there are around one hundred and fifty centers of devotion to Shirdi Sai Baba in India. The only one present in Europe is in London. There is also said to be one in Africa, in Ghana, and a few are said to be present in Nepal, Sikkim, and Bhutan. According to the Sansthān, however, Sai Baba devotees and centers are much more numerous, especially in India. They say that in Europe it is probably true that there is only one center in London, which is run by Indians of the diaspora who reside there (the same applies for the Sai Baba center in Ghana). Thus, if Sai Baba appears to be quite popular in the whole of India, especially in Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and the Southern States, he is virtually unknown outside of India.
The Sansthān gave me some information about Sri Narayan Baba (b. 1936). 1 He is given no credibility as Sai Baba's medium or successor/ avatāra 2 of this age. As they repeatedly told me: "Sai Baba has neither successors nor heirs". Anyway, they know of his activities. 3 He is said to be the leader of a small group of Sai Baba devotees. In a very terse way, they told me that he comes here to Shirdi with his following at the time of major festivals. For instance, he has organized the 1985 Annual Shirdi Yatra from Saturday, November 16, to Tuesday, November 19. They consider him as just a devotee of Sai Baba. They respect him as a Baba but they give no credit to his claim of being a medium between Sai Baba and the world since 1959. "It is simply not true", they say. Thus they don't believe in him.
With regard to Basheer Baba (b. 1942), the people of the Sansthān told me that he died approximately around 1980 though they are not sure as to the exact date. They said they will gather information and let me know in a few days. He used to come to Shirdi at least once a year together with his followers. Like Sri Narayan Baba, they consider Basheer Baba as just a devotee of Sai Baba, nothing more. They emphasize that no one here has ever given credit to his claim of being Sai Baba's reincarnation. They added that 1 Along with sixteen disciples, in August 1981 Sri Narayan Baba embarked on an America-Europe yātrā or pilgrimage/tour with the aim of spreading Sai Baba's renown. On August 28-29, 1981, he also came to Venice, and I had the opportunity to see him briefly (he and his party stayed at the Hotel Plaza in Mestre, but I happened to meet them quite by chance when they visited St. Mark's Square). On this occasion, I was given a copy of a special issue of his magazine Sri Sai Vani (vols. 18-19, July-August 1981) that publicized the Sri Sai Baba Upadesh Prachar, America-Europe Yatra organized by the Sri Bhagawati Sai Sansthan (Bombay-Panvel-New Delhi) whose headquarters was in Kurla, Bombay. Among those who accompanied Sri Narayan Baba was Leelavati Venkataraman, the 'wheel horse' of his Sansthān, i.e. its life and soul since 1966: prior to becoming a devotee of his, she had been active at the ashram of Ramana Maharshi in Tiruvannamalai. Along the years, Sri Narayan Baba has continued to spread Sai Baba's renown and his fame as a local guru is nowadays well established; see http://www.narayanbaba.org/guruji.php.
I may get more information on Basheer Baba from one Shivner Swami who stays at the cāvaḍī and so I immediately went to see him.
Shivner Swami told me that he has been living here for more than thirty years, working for free in the cāvaḍī and serving the Sansthān. He claims to be a sādhu, and many people around here revere him as such. When Basheer Baba came to Shirdi, Shivner Swami met him and came to know him a little. Apparently, Basheer Baba claimed to have obtained special powers, siddhis, soon after having had Sai Baba's darshan. However, according to Shivner Swami he would have misused these siddhis for egotistic purposes, that is, for making money for himself and buying some land. Thus, he soon came to lose his powers and fell into disrepute, revealing his spiritual immaturity. He said that Basheer Baba had numerous devotees in the Hyderabad area from where he came from. Shivner Swami did not remember exactly the year of his death: he said he might have died in 1982 or 1983. He invited me to come back to the cāvaḍī tomorrow around 12 p.m. so that we may have a longer conversation; before seeing him, I hope to be able to interview Mhalsapati's son around 9:30 a.m.
After these disappointing news on Basheer Baba, the one figure that stands out and requires a thorough investigation in his purported avatāric connection to Shirdi Sai Baba is unquestionably Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi in the Anantapur District of Andhra Pradesh. 4 The popular guru of Puttaparthi claims to be the reincarnation of the Shirdi saint since 1940, when at age thirteen he declared himself to be Sai Baba to his astounded family and early devotees. To my knowledge, he never came to Shirdi but I read that he once met Sati Godavari Mataji in Sakuri. 5 I will try to intensify my dialogue with the Sansthān, especially from next Monday. They can sure give me other useful information. From tomorrow I'll almost surely transfer to The Pilgrim's Inn hotel. In this way, I'll have a better and much safer room, certainly less noisy. The cost is eighty-five rupees per day, which is not too much. The problem is that I still need to change my dollars into rupees but hope to manage some way or the other.
5 I came to know this from reading Sathyam Sivam Sundaram, the biography of Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba written by Narayan Kasturi. He states: Four years ago [in 1957], when Baba was in Hyderabad City, He was invited to the Ashram of Godavari Matha, the disciple of Upasani Baba and Shirdi Baba, resident at Sakori. Welcomed by the women disciples with Vedic Recitations and the traditional ceremonies of Poornakumbham, they offered Puja. He must have blessed them with a glimpse of His Reality and His Identity for, they expressed a keen desire to come over to Prasanthi Nilayam. But, Baba said that He is as present at Sakori as anywhere, and that it is best they remain in Sakori itself. (Kasturi, Sathyam Sivam Sundaram, Part I (1926-1960, 192-3)

Figure 25
Sai Baba temple in Andheri, Bombay, adjacent to Sri Narayan Baba's center. At the left is a photo of Sri Narayan Baba

Interviews of the day
In Shirdi, Bappa Baba's house, which was his father's house, 9-10:30 a.m. if he could free his heart and mind from all desires and ideas of possession, then he would surely realize Brahman. If one achieves detachment then one experiences Brahman. Baba said to him: "Nothing is more important than the purity of the heart, śuddhatā antaḥkaraṇa". 12 Q What do you recall about Sai Baba's habits? A There is one big flat stone inside the Dvārakāmāī. Baba always used to sit on this stone; he even took his bath while sitting on it. The water was taken from the well at the Leṇḍī baug, the local gardens. Baba used to take a bath every morning. Actually before that, when Baba woke up in the early morning, he used to sit near the fire of the dhūnī.

First conversation with Bappa Baba, son of Lakshman Ratna
He stayed in front of the dhūnī for at least one hour and after that he took his bath. Q What did he do afterward? A After taking his bath, Baba went out for a walk. This was around 8 a.m. He used to go to the Leṇḍī stream, the nala, in the garden area, and there he would take care of various plants such as the nīm, audumbar, and pipal trees and give water to them. Then he came back to the Dvārakāmāī. After this, Baba used to go out on his round of begging. Afterward, he came back to the Dvārakāmāī and sat on his gādī, his siṃhāsan. 13 Then the people who wanted to meet Baba could approach him and speak to him. Later, the noon ārtī was celebrated. At the close of the ārtī, Baba would distribute naivedyas and, after distributing them, he took his meal. Q Did you ever witness any particular miracle, camatkār, performed by Baba? A Concerning miracles, what I can say is that often Baba would tell the persons gathered at the Dvārakāmāī the particular things that were to happen in the future or that had just happened to people and devotees who were far away from Shirdi. When they later came to Shirdi, everyone could verify the truth of Baba's words: he knew all things beforehand. Often, as soon as a devotee arrived in Shirdi, Baba would immediately ask him: "Why did you go to such and such a place and 11 A term of possibly Persian origin meaning 'God-Almighty-Sustainer'.
12 Lit. 'purity of the internal organ'. The antaḥkaraṇa is the seat of thought and feeling.
why did you behave in such and such a way with that person? Why did you act and speak so and so?". In this manner people realized the allknowing nature of Baba down to the last detail, that he knew all things and all persons intimately and thoroughly.
Bappa Baba says [laughing]: There are so many things to say and which I would like to tell you about Baba, but there is really no time now. We must stop our conversation here since I must take my bath.
However, before ending this conversation I would like to remember one more fact. Daily, Baba used to distribute among the people present at the Dvārakāmāī a considerable amount of money, between one and two hundred rupees in coins. These sums, which during the day he received from devotees as dakṣiṇā, he gave to the poor. In the evening, Baba distributed the money and kept nothing for himself: at night time, he was always with empty pockets. This was his behavior. I Thank you so much. It was really an honor to have this opportunity to speak with you.
Before leaving, I ask permission to take a photo of him and Bappa Baba kindly lets me take his picture.
[Bappa Baba passed away in Shirdi in May 1987] Then, because of some difficulties, I had to quit. Now I live by Baba's grace, depending upon the offerings and dakṣiṇās of devotees. In the last three years, that is from 1982, my mind has quieted down. I have acquired peace of mind, like that of a child, in an automatic and spontaneous way. I look upon other men as friends and companions, and I see women as mothers in my mind and heart. This is the sign of the birth of a saṃnyāsin, 16 which comes automatically, spontaneously. Q What do you think a devotee should do to be as close as possible to Baba? A I have read the Shri Sai Satcharita 17 more than five times. By pondering over this text, I think I have come to understand the nature and teachings of Sai Baba.
14 Lit. 'great king'. A title used for royalty as well as holy men.

Excerpts From My Diary
4:20 p.m. Today was a very good day. Nonetheless, the rhythms are quite stressful because I need to be alert and constantly on guard, trying to make the right decisions at every step. I just installed myself at The Pilgrim's Inn which is really a fine accommodation. The cost is eighty-five rupees a day which at this point I'm glad to pay. This morning I interviewed Martanda Baba, a wonderful old man who is the son of the famous Mhalsapati, the first devotee of Sai Baba and the one who would have named him "Sai" when he first arrived in Shirdi. 1 Given his venerable age -he is purportedly one hundred and eight years old! -I could interview him only briefly and yet it was a fruitful conversation. Next I interviewed for more than one hour Balaji Pilaji Gurav, an old villager who is apparently ninety years old. We had an excellent talk in his own house. During the first interview which took place in what used to be Mhalsapati's own house, 2 Martanda Baba gifted me with a copy of a picture which shows Sai Baba holding in his lap Martanda when he was a little boy, with Mhalsapati by his side.
In the afternoon I went to nearby Kopargaon since I hoped to change my dollars at the local bank there. Kopargaon is just about 15 km north of Shirdi and by bus it takes half an hour to reach. The river Godavari, sacred to all Maharashtrians as the Ganges, passes through Kopargaon. Unfortunately, I arrived at the bank too late and couldn't change my money. The exchange rate is around twelve rupees for a dollar. I hope I'll be able to change it at my hotel next Monday, without having to return to Kopargaon. We'll see.

5
Shirdi-Kopargaon-Shirdi Saturday, October 19, 1985 The weather is always good and the sun burns a lot.
Perhaps I will be able to interview Sri Narayan Baba this afternoon after 5! I and Swami Shekhar Rao discovered that he is here in Shirdi right now, together with numerous devotees. Really hope to have a conversation with him. In the house of Balaji Pilaji Gurav I could notice photos of Sri Narayan Baba as well as a few of his brochures. I am somewhat tired and also have a bit of a headache but am quite satisfied of the work done so far. 7:15 p.m., in my room at The Pilgrim's Inn. Unfortunately, I could not interview Sri Narayan Baba. When we went to look for him, he had just left to go back to his temple and headquarters in Bombay, where he will celebrate Puṇyatithi, Sai Baba's death anniversary. Too bad. Perhaps I will be able to see him once I return to Bombay.
Spoke with people of the Sansthān. They gave me the official program of the Shri Puṇyatithi Festival which will be held here in Shirdi between October 21 and October 23. They told me I might have a chance of speaking to the head of the Sansthān, its manager, on October 24 when the Puṇyatithi celebrations will be over. This year Vijayā Daśamī, 3 the holiday on which Sai Baba passed away, falls on October 22. I am in Shirdi just at the most propitious time, during which the samādhi of Sai Baba is being celebrated. This is really a grace and hope to be able to participate in most of the celebrations.
Tomorrow I hope to have a long conversation with Shivner Swami at the cāvaḍī, after the passing one I had late this afternoon. After that I will return to Sakuri, to further visit the Śrī Upāsnī Kanyākumārī ashram. In the evening I'll go back to the Shirdi Sansthān. I have asked the people of the Sansthān if I can buy some issues of Sai Leela, the monthly magazine which they told me is published in English since 1960 (prior to this date it was published only in Marāṭhī). Hope to find some old issues.
Late in the afternoon, I taped another brief conversation with Swami Shekhar Rao. In a short while I'll go down and have something to eat at the hotel restaurant. Hope the food is good. Being all alone it is important that I eat and drink well and have some good sleep, so as to keep myself in good shape.  Mhalsapati just said: "Āo Sāī". Then, after twenty, twenty-five years, since Sai was growing older, people added the 'Baba' to Sai. Q It is thus a title of respect? T Yes, out of respect… Baba means 'old one'. Like that. 7 Q Is there anything you would like to underline as being especially important about Sai Baba? A I have lots of memories but I'm really weak and have trouble talking; we should stop our conversation here. Q Can I take your picture? A Yes, sure. Q One last question: who is Sai Baba for you? Is he God, Brahman? A After some years, we came to the conclusion that Baba was Bhagavān, God: our hearts told us so. We came to realize that he was just like an avatāra, like Rām and Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, we offered him pūjās and my father performed the ārtī in Baba's honor. Daily, at noon ārtī, my father used to offer naivedyas to Baba, food offerings. Baba would take some and then distribute the rest among the people who were present at the masjid. Q Is there any other thing you would like to add? A Just about fifteen days before he took samādhi, Baba told my father these words: "I am going. Within fifteen to twenty days I will be gone". And, indeed, after fifteen days or so he left his body. Q And what happened immediately after Sai Baba's death? A For three days Baba's body was kept on a plank. Disputes arose. The Mohammedans said: "Baba belongs to us". The Hindus said: "No, Baba belongs to us". Then a court commissioner came to Shirdi and he decided what had to be done declaring that Baba was Hindu. Thus Baba's body was given to the Hindus. 8 T They discovered that Baba wore a laṅgoṭī, 9 and thus it was decided that the body should be given to the Hindus. Q When was the laṅgoṭī discovered? T After three days. Q How did they find it? T They checked the body; the commissioner examined Sai Baba's body.
Then it was decided… The laṅgoṭī which Baba wore belongs to Hinduism. Q Could you ask Martanda Baba if he is convinced that Sai Baba was a Hindu? T It is naturally so… Q Are you convinced that Sai Baba was Hindu? How do you explain that he so often spoke about God calling him Allāh or Faqīr? A Yes, Baba was Hindu. But Baba was loving toward all, whether they be Hindus or Mohammedans. He was loving to all. Be they faqīrs, sādhus, yogīs, Mohammedans, etcetera. he loved everybody. Q You mean that he was favorable to all, that he made no distinctions whatsoever among people based on their religion, caste, stage of life, etcetera?
7 In Hindī the term bābā means grandfather and is used to respectfully address old men and ascetics.
9 Waist cloth, a strip of cloth covering the genitals. This laṅgoṭī was worshipped by Balaji Pilaji Gurav's family.

• Shirdi-Kopargaon-Shirdi. Saturday, October 19, 1985
T Yes. He would often take his meals with faqīrs and eat mutton or fish with them. Q What about Sai Baba's miracles? A Baba only gave blessings to devotees, āśīrvād. To devotees as well as to everybody who came to see him, he used to give the udī. He gave the udī and blessed them. Q Did he place his hand on their heads or not? T Sometimes he himself put the udī on their foreheads. In any case, he always gave udī to the people. This was the main thing: Baba's blessings. Q Sai Baba's blessings meant that everything would be all right? T Yes. Whatever a person's problems, Baba's blessings were the assurance that everything would be all right. Then a person was not to worry any more. In Shirdi, Balaji Pilaji Gurav's house, 11-12:15 p.m.

First conversation with Shri Balaji Pilaji Gurav, who settled in Shirdi in 1912.
Q How old are you? A I'm ninety years old. T When Baba took samādhi, he was over thirty.
Balaji Pilaji [correcting the interpreter]: When I was twenty, not thirty, Baba took samādhi. When Baba took samādhi, I was present there, and he wore the very laṅgoṭī which I have here.
T He has the laṅgoṭī Baba wore, that very one.
Balaji Pilaji says: Baba gave me money, metallic coins, not as dakṣiṇā but as money for my economic necessities. I have here some coins which I still keep.
Q Could you tell me what, in your opinion, was Sai Baba's most important teaching? A I became a close devotee of Baba when I was fourteen years old. I came to Shirdi with my father in 1912; I was fourteen then. 10 When Baba took samādhi I was twenty. In the six years between 1912 and 1918 I received a lot from Baba. Q What did you use to do with Baba? A My father played music, did bhajans. My father's name was Pilaji Gurav. I played too, the tabla in particular. 11 My father played the sanai. Q Is it true that Baba often got angry? A Sometimes, when I was young, I remember having been beaten by Baba. Sometimes Baba would beat me. Q Why did he beat you, were there any reasons? A No. Without reason or cause… Baba would simply get angry with us youngsters. One time I remember going to the Leṇḍī baug with Baba. Some trees which Baba had planted and which he took care of had been cut and damaged. Then Baba got angry and told me: "Haven't you seen this? Why do you allow the trees to get damaged? Go away…". So Baba said. Q Did he beat you? T No, no, he told him to go away. Q You mean that Baba got angry because Balaji Pilaji was supposed to guard the trees and he hadn't done so? T Yes, yes. In those days he was the keeper of Baba's garden. Q Thus, there probably were some young people who had climbed up the trees, damaging them? T Yes, right.
10 Balaji Pilaji Gurav and his extended family came from Korhale, a small village about eight miles away from Shirdi. On the incident that brought him to settle permanently in Shirdi, see Chitluri,Baba's Divine Symphony, 11 It is reported that he also used to play the clarion at ārtī times.

• Shirdi-Kopargaon-Shirdi. Saturday, October 19, 1985
Maestri, testi e fonti d'Oriente | Masters, Texts and Sources of the East 2 75 Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 67-86 Balaji Pilaji adds: I told Baba: "Baba, how can you talk to me like this, blaming me for the damage? The trees are the Government property, they belong to others!". But Baba said: "Even trees have a life of their own, which needs to be safeguarded. They must not be cut or damaged. One must prevent this from happening". I So someone had literally cut off parts of the trees: this was the reason why Baba was so mad. T Yes, yes. Baba said that one shouldn't do that.
Balaji Pilaji remembers: Once, during the Rāmanavamī festival, a water shortage occurred in Shirdi. There was no more water and nobody knew what to do. There were thousands of pilgrims in Shirdi for Rāmanavamī, and the situation was serious. The villagers thought: "What shall we do, where shall we go?". Then everybody went to Baba and asked him what should be done. Baba then did the following: he took from the villagers some jowar 12 and he poured it in the village well which was not supplying water anymore. It so happened that soon after having poured the jowar in the well, lots of water appeared in it again. From that moment water was never scarce, and we were able to fetch it from the well at all times.
Q Was this a miracle of Sai Baba? T Yes, this is the meaning. Q Could you tell me something concerning Sai Baba's teachings? In the six years you were close to him, did he ever give out any instructions? A When someone came to Baba, Baba used to simply give him udī, saying: "Don't worry anymore. Don't think about the future. Go, and all will be well". Q He would say so? T Yes, and he never gave any mantra to anybody. Q Could you explain why Baba made such a frequent use of Islāmic words and phrases, such as calling God "Faqīr"? A In those days many faqīrs used to come to Shirdi and meet Baba. Baba used to stay with them, take his food with them, and do as they did. Baba always said "Allāh Mālik", 'God is one'. He would always raise up his finger when saying this. Q So raising his forefinger he would utter "Allāh Mālik"? T Yes. In the same way he used to say the names of Rām, Kṛṣṇa, Śiva… Q Did he also use Hindu names such as Rām, Kṛṣṇa, Śiva, etcetera? A Yes, both Hindu and Muslim names… both. Q What did Baba do during the day? What were his most important occupations? A In the early morning, when Baba got up, he would go to the Leṇḍī baug and then, when he returned, he would go into the village around 9 a.m. He used to cry out to people, saying: "Lāo mayi, lāo mayi", which means: 'Give to me, give to me!'. He asked for something to eat. Then, after about an hour, he would return to the Dvārakāmāī. Here he would take a bath. Then he would be ready for the noon ārtī. Q After having begged and come back to the Dvārakāmāī, could people go to him and meet with him freely, or did they need Baba's permission to have access to him and talk with him? A No. Everybody had free access to the mosque and could talk to Baba.
However, sometimes Baba would not allow certain persons to come inside. For example, there was one faqīr whom he didn't allow in. T I can't remember the name of that faqīr right now. I'll tell you later. It's written in the books. 13 I Thus, in some cases Baba did not allow certain people in. T Yes. Only in special cases though. Even to Mohammedans he didn't permit entry in the masjid. 14 Q Do you know if Baba ever gave any specific teachings to anybody? T He has already answered this. Baba would only give udī and blessings.
That's all. No teaching, no mantra to anybody. Q Were there more Hindus or Muslims coming to see Baba? A Eighty per cent Hindus. Only about twenty per cent Muslims. Q What was Sai Baba's personality like, when he interacted with people? A During the day, Baba would never rest or sleep. After the noon ārtī many devotees came to Baba, to meet him. Sometimes bhajans were performed, the names of God were sung, kīrtans, etcetera. Q Thus Baba would rest only at night? A Baba would have dinner between 7 and 8 p.m. One night he slept at the Dvārakāmāī and the following one at the cāvaḍī. Q What time did he used to get up? A At 5 a.m. Q Did you ever see Sai Baba pray or meditate? A After 10 a.m, coming back from the village to the masjid, Baba would return to the Leṇḍī baug and stay there an hour or one and a half hours. He stayed there alone, no one would be near him. Q Would he pray or meditate there, you think? T Nobody ever saw what he was doing there. So Balaji Pilaji says. Q Were all the villagers Baba devotees in those days? T Yes, yes. Everybody. Q Could you ask him about Narayan Baba? T Today he was here in Shirdi. Today only. Q Can we go see him? T Yes, I'll take you. I've seen him today. He was in the temple. Q Can you ask him if he believes Narayan Baba to be, as he claims, a 'medium' of Sai Baba? Narayan Baba claims to be in touch with Sai 14 For instance, G.S. Khaparde (1854-1938) -a prominent lawyer and politician, member of the central legislative assembly who served as an aide to the nationalist leader B.G. Tilak -in his diary entry of January 20, 1912, writes: "Presently a Jahagirdar of a village somewhere hereabout came and Sayin Baba would not let him approach, much less worship. Many people interceded for him in vain. Appa Kote came and did his utmost to secure at least the usual kind of puja for the Jahagirdar and Sayin Baba relented so far as to let him enter the masjid and worship the pillar near the fireplace, but he would not give udi" (Shirdi Diary of the Hon'ble Mister G.S. Khaparde, 59). Baba's spirit from 1959, but the Sansthān doesn't believe him and regards him as just one of Baba's devotees. A Narayan Baba has been coming to Shirdi for twenty years. He used to work as a keeper of the railway track. Now, however, he has left his job. Now his only concern has become devotion to Sai Baba. There is a Sai Baba temple which he has erected in Panvel, in Bombay. I've heard that people have erected Sai Baba temples even in America… in America. Q But do you believe that Narayan Baba is a 'medium' of Sai Baba? A Nowadays many people come here with Narayan Baba. Q But do you believe him to possess these powers? A Narayan Baba is just a Baba devotee. Q Thus you view him as a mere devotee? T Yes; he doesn't seem to possess any power.
Balaji Pilaji [correcting the interpreter]: He has some powers really. Q However he chiefly views him as just a devotee of Baba? T Yes, correct.
Balaji Pilaji adds: I know nothing about the guru, the teacher of Narayan Baba. I think that, for him, Sai Baba is his teacher… that is, I think he considers Sai Baba to be his teacher.
Q Could you tell us a particularly significant story about Sai Baba? A Well, that of the water shortage and of the pouring of jowar in the well was one. Sai Baba never drank tea. One day a saṃnyāsin from Haridvar came to meet with Baba. At that time that saṃnyāsin was really a true saṃnyāsin, that is, he didn't possess anything apart from his kafnī… He told Baba: "You see in what conditions I find myself. Mahārāj, Mahārāj, Mahārāj, please help me!". Baba didn't say anything to anybody and it so happened that one Deshpande, 15 one of Baba's devotees, brought food: bread, tea, and other things to the masjid. This Deshpande brought in these things and served them to Baba. But Baba said: "No, this food is not for me. Give it to this saṃnyāsin". So goes the story. Q Without that monk asking or telling anything to Sai Baba? T No, no. The monk told Sai Baba of his necessities, and Baba, without telling anything to anybody, had that Deshpande bring him food automatically, spontaneously. Q Thus the food came without any request? T Deshpande brought it, and he offered it to Baba.
Balaji Pilaji [describing a photo of Sai Baba leaving the masjid for the Leṇḍī gardens]: This man, from left to right, is Nana Saheb Nimonkar. The last one to the right is Buti Saheb. The one in the middle, holding the regal umbrella, is Bhau 16 Shinde.   17 Patil told Buti to go meet Baba, and that all would be well… to not worry about anything and to not fear. Buti went, met with Baba, and thus was able to escape death. Only then did Buti become a close disciple of Baba. Patil told Buti Saheb: "Go to Baba and sit there, stay there. Don't wander here and there. Then all will be well". That evening passed and nothing bad happened to him. Thus he was able to escape death.
T Buti was an educated man and also a very rich man, a millionaire.
Balaji Pilaji continues: The day after, around 8 a.m., Buti was massaging Baba's legs. Then Buti told Baba he wanted to leave since he needed to go to the bathroom… He said: "Give me permission to leave now". But Baba told Buti: "No, not now. You must not go anywhere now; you may go later". That same day, but an hour later, Buti again asked Baba if he could leave saying: "I must go to the toilette Baba". But Baba again did not give him permission to leave saying: "Not now. You must not go anywhere now". Only after 10:30 a.m. did Baba give Buti permission to leave and go where he wanted.
Q What is the explanation of all this? T Buti was afraid of the prediction that astrologer had made, and by going to Baba he avoided evil consequences. Baba did not allow Buti to leave since those were particularly dangerous and negative hours for him.
Balaji Pilaji continues: After 10:30 a.m. he finally reached the toilette in the grounds' area. In those days only the grounds' area had toilettes. There was also a sevak, a servant, with Buti. In fact, Baba had told Buti: "Don't go there alone but bring along your sevak with you". The sevak in this case was like a bodyguard. Then, they went down to the grounds with some water and there Buti walked some distance away from where the sevak was. Buti was then heard crying, and when his sevak came running toward him he found the skin of a snake near him. Crying, they speedily left the place and returned back.
Q Had a snake bitten Buti? T A snake was there but it didn't bite him, no. While these disputes were going on, Kaka Saheb Dixit sent a telegram to the Nagar 22 inspector, in which he said something like: "Baba expired. Please come and settle the issue". Thus they came with a commission. Actually, the inspector came to Shirdi, not the commission. The inspector came from Nagar. He told the people that the body needed to be examined. Only after doing this they could settle the issue. So he said. Q What did they discover on Baba's body? A After Baba left the body, some people washed him. They gave him the last bath, as it is called. The Hindu devotees did it. In doing this, the laṅgoṭī was discovered. Q You mean to say that they discovered that Baba wore a laṅgoṭī? T They discovered Sai Baba's laṅgoṭī while undressing him for his bath.
It happened so. Then the laṅgoṭī was shown to all. There were many Mohammedans present there on that occasion. They had to accept the Hindu point of view when they realized that Baba wore a laṅgoṭī. So the inspector decided once and for all that the body belonged to the Hindus since Muslims never wear laṅgoṭīs. Q Are there today many Muslims who are devoted to Baba? A Yes, there are. They are not many, however. T Only around twenty per cent. In Shirdi, inside the cāvaḍī, 5:45 p.m.

Brief conversation on Basheer Baba with Shivner Swami, fifty-nine years old, keeper of the cāvaḍī who has been living in Shirdi for more than thirty years.
Shivner Swami says: The last time I saw Basheer Baba here, he gave me darshan and told me that he had received yogadaṇḍa, 23 some powers. Then, for several years, he was absent from Shirdi. Q Is that because he was searching only for money and publicity, as I have been told? A Because he was attending to other things: his house, his land, his family. He was married, had wife and children. Q Therefore, he wasn't an authentic master, a guru? A He was a bit greedy. 24 Lit. 'muttering'. The constant repetition of a mantra or of a deity's name, performed in a low tone.
25 In fact, there was one: the small ashram of the Parsi holy man Homi Baba.

Excerpts From My Diary
Sakuri, 2:30 p.m. Another good day. This morning at the cāvaḍī had a long conversation of about one and a half hour with Shivner Swami, who has been living in Shirdi for the past thirty years. It was a good interview, with many profound and interesting stories about himself and on Sai Baba and his teachings. It was quite moving. While conversing with Shivner Swami, I also interviewed another man who was with him and who lived here as a kind of begging sādhu for five years and who has recently moved to Bombay, in the Andheri area: his name is A. Nagesh Churya.
I then moved to Sakuri and had another long and absorbing conversation with Shri S.N. Tipnis, the Kanyākumārī Sthān's secretary and manager, who is no doubt the most authoritative figure here second only to Sati Godavari Mataji. I later had Mataji's darshan. I plan to come back to Sakuri one more time on October 24; hope I will be able to talk to her. The celebrations for the present yajña will be over on October 23 and thus I hope that on the 24th she might find the time to see me, even for just a few minutes. Around 4 p.m. I should again see Mr. Tipnis who has promised to give me some important books for my research. Had a good meal here at the ashram and now I can rest a while. Shirdi-Sakuri-Shirdi Sunday, October 20, 1985 dedicated to Shri Godavari Mataji. I told him I will come back to Sakuri on the 24th. He said he will show me his PhD thesis which he wrote on Upasni Maharaj, and has promised to offer more useful information. It will also be my last chance to have an interview with Sati Godavari Mataji. Tipnis said that she has been informed about me and my research. Apparently, she instructed him to tell me all the important things about Sakuri and the Kanyākumārī Sthān.
I and my guide and interpreter Swami Shekhar Rao left on foot following the main road and walked half the distance between Sakuri and Shirdi. It was a beautiful walk under a beautiful, clear sky. The road is all along lined with old, magnificent trees and to the left and to the right are vast fields. Peasants could be seen at work with their oxen. It was a spectacular scenery. Halfway along the road a truck picked us up in quite an adventurous way and thus we got back to Shirdi in just a few minutes.
Had a third, brief conversation with Swami Shekhar Rao and then spoke with a couple of secretaries of the Sansthān. Hopefully, tomorrow they should fix me an appointment for an interview. Tomorrow I must get up early around 5:30 a.m. so as to be at the Gurusthān at 6 sharp. From here will start the procession with the picture of Sai Baba that will solemnly open the Puṇyatithi celebrations. Tomorrow I must also send two telegrams, one at home and another one to H.J. Agrawal in Khamgaon; they should receive them in two or three days. I took a shower and will soon go to eat at the hotel's restaurant. It has been another eventful day, having seen many people and having learned lots of things. I am truly grateful for the work done so far, which looks very promising.  Under that tree he was seen practicing penance when he was a lad of fifteen. Later, he became known with the name of Sai Baba. This is the fourth temple, the cāvaḍī. Baba used to come here on alternate nights to sleep. Baba slept one night in the Dvārakāmāī and one night in the cāvaḍī. This continued until his samādhi. In the beginning, about 1912, Baba was worshipped only in the cāvaḍī. The devotees used to bring Baba here in a great procession, offering him pūjā, followed by ārtī, and then he was offered a cilīm. The cilīm is an earthen clay pipe. Baba used to smoke tobacco in it. He would aspirate a puff, and then the pipe was passed around to all the devotees. At the end, the devotees left Baba here alone. Then he would prepare his bed. Even here he used a peculiar system, placing fifty sheets one on top of the other, to form his bed. He would do this by himself. Baba didn't like his devotees to serve him; he did his chores personally, whatever they were. So, after having prepared his bed, he retired for the night. The next morning, everything would begin all over again. Devotees came to him very early in the morning, before 5 a.m., and they celebrated the kākaḍ ārtī, here in the cāvaḍī. Then they would lead Baba back to the Dvārakāmāī, where he would open his darbār. In Hindī, darbār means a royal court assembly. Here people came to meet Baba, to seek his blessings, his grace. Therefore, when Baba was in the cāvaḍī, he lived in relative isolation, whereas in the Dvārakāmāī he used to meet with people. Q Can you tell me what you think about Baba's origins, his guru, etcetera? What is your opinion on these issues? T There are two stories regarding Baba's hypothetic guru. One time Baba casually said that the name of his guru was Venkusha, and that he came from Selu, a place in Andhra Pradesh. 1 Then, since Baba was seen sitting under a nīm tree, some devotees asked him why he was so attached to this tree, always sitting under it. Baba explained that it had belonged to his guru, and he said "ancestor". When a hole was dug in the ground at that spot, following the instructions of Khaṇḍobā -you know that Khaṇḍobā is a form, an aspect of Śiva, who would possess men and respond to the questions of persons interrogating him -it was asked of Khaṇḍobā, during the trance of a devotee, news of the young lad, Baba. Khaṇḍobā answered that that place had belonged to the lad's guru, and this was the reason he was so attached to it. He said that if a hole was dug there, an opening would be found, an underground entrance to a small tomb. Therefore, the local people dug there, found a tunnel that descended for about one metre and sixty-five centimetres under the ground, and they saw that there was a small room constructed in a way that resembled a tomb. They found lanterns burning inside, but no one could understand who could have put the oil there and lit those lanterns. The local people had never imagined that such a thing existed under the ground in that place. When they discovered the room, they found flowers inside, lamps burning. The fragrance was such that it seemed as if someone had just celebrated pūjā and then gone away. They were all consternated. Baba told them that that place had belonged to his guru whom he had served for twelve years. Baba added: "Today all that I am, I owe to his grace". Therefore, this place is named Gurusthān. Then people began to get curious about Baba's origins. They wanted to find out, to arrive at some definite conclusions. Since one time Baba had casually said that he came from Selu and that his guru's name was Venkusha, some people went to Selu to investigate. They were told that years before there had been a man called Venkusha, whose real name was Gopalrao Deshmukh. He was a pious man who lived a very religious life, an enlightened soul. The people also said that Venkusha had a small lad with him, and that at a certain moment the boy had left and gone away. They recounted that Venkusha had saved him from some accidents. In fact, some people were jealous of the boy, and one time they hit him with bricks. Q Because the boy was so saintly, pious? T Yes. So his guru protected him from that incident, stopping the brick in mid-air before it could hit the boy with force. However, Venkusha then permitted the stone to continue its course, hitting the boy but without damage. Thanks to his protective grace, he slowed the speed and striking power of the stone. 2 When Venkusha told the boy that it was time to leave him, he said: "All the powers that I have, I invest them now in you". So said Venkusha. And he went on: "Now you must continue to wander and save humanity". In this way the guru asked the boy to leave that place. And the boy, taking along the brick which had been hurled at him, left. This is the narrative of the inhabitants of Selu, told to investigators from Shirdi.
1 Here my interpreter and informant was mistaken: Selu/Sailu is a town located in Maharashtra, Parbhani District, not in Andhra Pradesh.
2 However, according to the standard version of this story which was first voiced by Das Ganu it was Venkusha who received the blow in lieu of his pupil. Selu with Gopalrao, don't you think? Therefore, we suppose that many years ago a certain Gopalrao was in Selu, right? But unfortunately the dates don't correspond. Q You mean to say that Baba was too young? T Yes. Therefore, even though there was a man named Gopalrao Deshmukh, whom people presume was Venkusha, this narrative does not allow us to arrive at a definite conclusion. 3 When Baba was asked about the Gurusthān, he said he had served his guru for twelve years. This would mean that he arrived here at age four and thus could have not been in Selu. Therefore we cannot reach a conclusion. On the other hand, Baba is eternal, you know. Therefore, when Baba said that his guru was here [he interrupts himself]… As when Baba once told a Swamiji, one of the most celebrated of his devotees who wrote many books on Baba and who made lots of research: "I was in the army of Lakshmibai during the war of independence", 4 etcetera. Q Could it be that he referred to preceding incarnations of his? T Sai Baba said many things: that he was here, that he was there… And this because Baba is eternal. And although we cannot see him today, he is always here. He is here since the birth of this universe. He is the creator, you know. Therefore, we cannot say anything in a definite way.
Shivner Swami says: Baba said: "Ten thousand years ago I was already in this Dvārakāmāī". So Baba said, and you will find it written in books also. 5 Q Thus, historically speaking, his origins remain a mystery. Is there any particular teaching that Baba underlined? For example, bhaktimārga, that is, devotion, surrender, or jñānamārga, the path of knowledge? A You have asked what Baba gave the most importance to. I think it was to remember God always, in every moment. It is nāmasmaraṇ: it means repeating constantly the names of God. Baba himself repeated constantly the name of Allāh. Allāh, in Urdu, means Lord. Therefore, Baba always had the name of Allāh on his lips. He himself practiced this and became an example for all his devotees and followers. He always said that remembering God was the most important thing, and also that this sādhanā, this spiritual exercise, was the easiest. Whatever work one does, even if one lives a very social life and must do many things daily, still nāmasmaraṇ is a sādhanā that one can practice even while being busy with other occupations. Even if one is doing heavy physical labor, mentally he can continue the repetition of the name he has chosen: Sai Baba, Rām, Śiva, etcetera. Any name. The important thing is to repeat it incessantly, until it becomes such a habit that one recites the name of God with every breath, inhaling and exhaling. Q It becomes a continual sādhanā? T Yes. Thus the practice of nāmasmaraṇ will remain with the sādhaka 6 until the moment of his death. And if one pronounces the name of the Lord at the moment of death, our Scriptures say: "Whatever you think of at the last instant, so you become"; 7 and that means that the sādhaka reaches God himself, the goal, the ultimate aim of human life. If you remember him… Thus, toward this goal, it is necessary to practice nāmasmaraṇ all your life. Then God's name will automatically arise in you even at the moment of death. This was the teaching that Baba underlined. You know, another saint of Maharashtra, Swami Rāmdās, recited the name of Rām incessantly. He then became greatly enlightened, had the vision of Rām, his darshan, and became a very popular saint in Maharashtra. Therefore, this extraordinary power can be realized by anyone, if he sincerely practices nāmajapa. 8 Baba insisted on this point. He insisted on another point also: I would call it 'charity of food', annadān, that is, to feed the poor. Baba himself used to prepare food and invited many people to partake of it. Q Did he prepare the food alone all by himself? T Yes, yes. Even during the manual labor and all the preparations, he wouldn't let anyone else interfere. He used to bring the necessary foodstuffs, vegetables, etcetera, from the bazaar, buying them with his own money. He did all the cooking alone, and when the food was ready he served the people who gathered around, whoever was present, rich or poor. Q Can you ask the Swami why, in his opinion, the expression 'Allāh Mālik' was always present on Baba's lips and not, for example, Hindu names such as Rām, Kṛṣṇa, etcetera? A Baba wanted to create unity between the two religions. Therefore, he usually said to Muslims: "Recite Rām Rām, and Allāh will bless you". While to the Hindus he said "Allāh Mālik" [the Swami and the interpreter burst into laughter]. Baba always said: "God is one". This means that there are only different paths to reach him, the one God. There is no reason to argue about religion. Baba, for example, kept a fire burning in the masjid, built a Tulsi Vrindavan, 9 and had a big bell as in a Christian church. Sikh devotees viewed the Dvārakāmāī as a Gurudvāra. 10 Baba named the mosque Dvārakāmāī precisely because it was open to all. Baba usually recited the names of Hindu divinities, as he also recited "Allāh Mālik". To some devotees he said: "I am a pure Brahmin". To others he said: "I am a Muslim". Or: "Even if I am a Muslim, continue to adore your own guru".
6 The practitioner of a spiritual discipline.
8 The muttering of a mantra or holy name; a synonym of nāmasmaraṇ.
9 Holy basil (Ocymum sanctum) regarded by vaiṣṇavas as sacred to Viṣṇu and kept in a special masonry structure.
10 Sikh temple. I "God is one": this seems to have been the essential point… A One time Baba used to give medicine to the ill. A few years later, he said: "I used to sing 'Hari Hari, Allāh Allāh', and then I became Hari, I became Allāh. From that day onward I began to give udī to the sick". Q As medicine? A It means that by singing, reciting the name of God, we become God.
Then Baba stopped giving medicine, and only gave udī. Q Can you tell me something about Basheer Baba? A I saw him. At the beginning he was in great difficulty and stayed here for some years. Q When did he arrive here the first time? A Before he became famous. He came here and stayed in the Leṇḍī gardens. At that time he was unknown. Afterward he went up on a mountain to meditate, and they say that Sai Baba appeared before him and gave him a yogadaṇḍa, a stick. This is a wooden stick; it is used in combination with a jholī 11 when begging for food. There was one Raghendra Swami who was also a saint, and Basheer Baba blessed him, that is, gave him mantralaya. 12 Raghendra Swami asked him if he had really seen Sai Baba, and Basheer Baba said that he had been blessed by him. From that time on, his popularity grew. Q He became famous because he had a vision of Sai Baba who gave him a yogadaṇḍa? A Yes, yes. So he became very famous. But lately I have heard from people from there, that is, Hyderabad, that he has lost his powers, and that he has begun to make buildings for himself. Q You mean that his yogic powers are gone? A Yes. Sometime ago he came here. People were worshipping him, as they worship Sai Baba, in his room. The last time I saw him, he was celebrating some yajñas in the Leṇḍī gardens. Then after a few months he died. Q Do you believe that Basheer Baba had changed in his last years, that he was no longer a spiritual person? A I met some of his devotees, people who were close to him, who stayed with him, and they told me he was not the same as before. He took money from devotees and did not repay them. Many of his disciples told me so. This is the reason. Q The reason why he lost his powers? A Yes. I I'm asking you these questions because I know that Basheer Baba said he was Sai Baba's successor, his successive incarnation. A Yes. He wanted to go all around the world but Baba didn't allow him to. Q Therefore you think that he had some powers but that in his last years he lost them? A Yes. Q Because of his bad behavior? A Yes, right. Q What brought Basheer Baba to Shirdi the first time? Why did he come here and stay for a few years?
A You know, when spiritual powers obtained through profound practices are used badly or for material profit, living a lavish and comfortable life and abandoning spiritual discipline, then the powers you attained earlier will come to a sudden end. This has happened to many spiritual personalities. In the beginning, for instance by reciting the names of the Lord, they obtained some powers, but then, interrupting their pious religious lives and abandoning their sādhanā, they inevitably lost whatever powers they had acquired. Then they return to being normal, ordinary men. This has happened to many people. Q And this is what happened to Basheer Baba? T Yes, this is what I also think. Q What is your name, sir? T Nagesh Churya. Q Do you live here? T I lived here in Shirdi for five years. I arrived in Shirdi on September 1st, 1978. At that time I knew nothing about Baba, but so many people told me that Shirdi was such a nice place that I thought of coming here, with the idea of staying only one day and leaving that same evening. But after arriving here, I liked the place. You know, the first thing you notice when arriving in Shirdi is the mental peace of the place. Whatever tensions you have accumulated in the place where you live, whatever your anxieties or problems, when you arrive in Shirdi all these just disappear and you experience mental peace such as you never felt before in your life. Therefore, a person begins to love Shirdi and to come often, in order to enjoy this peace. In this way, contact with Baba is developed, and a person understands that he who has protected him for all these years is none other than Baba… Do you understand? Q So you stayed here? T I remained here for five years, although my intention had been to stay only one day. I left my work and all the rest, and I remained in Shirdi, living as every other faqīr or mendicant I should say. But it was Baba's love, this love that he has for all his devotees, that induced me to remain here. Then I began to get interested in spiritual life, and began to read the Scriptures and whatever literature I could find about Baba. I began to study his figure. Then I had two visions of Baba. Thus I can say that my sojourn in Shirdi benefitted me in many ways. I had previously lived a very different type of life, in Bombay. Now, however, I have understood the reason why one is born as a human being, the significance and the aim of human birth. And what we should reach after having obtained this human body. I only understood these things after arriving here in Shirdi. Now I try to make sincere efforts to reach that goal, that destination. Baba has promised that, from birth to birth, he will be with us and guide us, and will help each devotee to reach the goal, the ultimate aim of human life, that is, becoming one with God. Q Thank you. You have described a marvellous experience. You now live in Bombay? T Yes, I returned to Bombay because Baba never gives an excessive task to anyone. If I remember correctly, there was one Mister Jog here in Shirdi, who always celebrated the ārtī to Baba. He wanted to take up

Antonio Rigopoulos
Maestri, testi e fonti d'Oriente | Masters, Texts and Sources of the East 2 97 Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 87-124 saṃnyāsa, 13 but even to him Baba said: "The time will come for that, but you must wait". You know, Baba used to say that a person must be qualified to obtain something. Therefore, a person like me or like us, who are tied by numerous karmic bonds on the basis of the good or bad that we have done, must undergo the results, the consequences of these actions. Unless these ties are dissolved, for example by reciting the name of the Lord as the Scriptures say, one cannot enter monastic life because of a lack of spiritual maturity. Therefore, until in our karmayoga 14 we do not reach an equilibrium or balance, the moment is not ripe to take saṃnyāsa, that is, to lead a life of begging. I Studying the books about Sai Baba I realize that his teaching is very modern, in the sense that he addresses all types of persons, in particular people who lead ordinary worldly lives, who are gṛhasthas. 15 Therefore, it's an opportunity for spiritual growth addressed to anyone desiring it, even if he has family, wife, children, job. I think this is especially important, because if Baba's teaching was restricted to the saṃnyāsa aspirant or the renunciant, then only a small minority could hope for enlightenment, for ātmajñāna. 16 Thus, I think this was a great grace which Baba offered to his devotees, inviting them to practice nāmasmaraṇ, etcetera wherever they found themselves. Don't you think so? T As you know, different types of spiritual practices were prescribed when the Vedas were written, according to the different eras. For the present age of kali, 17 the Vedas recommend the practice of nāmasmaraṇ as the most appropriate. The Vedas knew that in the kali age human life would be short and that man would live totally absorbed in mundane, worldly affairs. Therefore, it would be difficult for man in this age to practice complex sādhanās. Thus the simplest sādhanā, which is the remembrance of God, was already prescribed when the Vedas were written. The Samartha Sadgurus 18 like Baba, lead their devotees along the spiritual path in the best way possible, this is their goal. Therefore, these Samartha Sadgurus continue to change their techniques, adopting those that are most suitable in a particular historical period. So, during Baba's time, when God incarnated as Sai Baba, he privileged this technique of nāmasmaraṇ. If we look at the crowds arriving in Shirdi today, we see people from high society, I mean people living modern lives. They cannot arise at 3 a.m. as people did one time, bathe in the river, meditate, etcetera. Today our times are not conducive to such practices. Moreover, Baba cleared up one point, and that is that every religion has equal dignity, that there is no difference between religions, or difference between the God of one and the God of another. God is one, one energy that manifests itself from time to time with different names and different forms. For this reason, we should not think that Islām is different from Hinduism, that Christianity is different from 13 Renunciation.
14 Lit. 'the discipline of action'. A path to liberation outlined by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavadgītā and requiring an attitude of detachment from the results of one's actions (naiṣkarmya).
17 The last and most degenerate of the four world ages or yugas.
Hinduism. Our present type of comprehension is very negative. We have hostility toward each other, arriving at very negative excesses. People belonging to a different religion from our own are considered enemies because they practice things that we don't. Baba wanted clarity and the elimination of all that enmity. For this reason, he wouldn't allow anyone to know what religion or sect he belonged to. When Muslims came to him, he told them: "Recite Rām, Rām", or: "Recite Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa and Allāh will bless you". This, you see, is a completely different kind of teaching. Telling a Muslim to recite the name of Rām, and that Allāh will in consequence bless him, means that one can recite any name, it's the same. After about seven or eight days, when no one else was present, he heard a voice, telling him: "I asked you to go to Shirdi, but instead you're wasting your time here". Swamiji looked around but saw no one and so he thought that it was an illusion or his imagination, so he continued staying there, mainly because he didn't want to go to a Muslim. After three or four days he again heard the voice, the same voice. This time it sounded threatening, saying: "So, are you going or not?". Swamiji got frightened and decided to go to Shirdi. He came from the South and didn't know the local language of these places, so he decided that instead of going to Shirdi by road he would follow the railway tracks. This way he thought that he would surely reach Shirdi, and he would not be confused or be afraid of getting lost. So that's what he did. If you were to do this today, you would see that for miles and miles there are neither inhabitants nor houses. Swamiji at that time wandered as a beggar. He had no money and had to walk the whole way. Only when someone offered him food could he nourish himself. This means that he lived only on alms at that time. So, while he was following the railway tracks in complete solitude, Swamiji for three or four days had nothing to eat, and he was starving.
One night about midnight, as he walked along the tracks, he suddenly got the idea that since he was going to a guru -as tradition would have it -the guru as such should be able to take care of his disciple in all circumstances… The guru must be able to save the disciple, even from death. A Samartha Sadguru should be thus. And it is said that one should find such a guru and follow him. It's not said to follow just any kind of guru. So Swamiji wanted to test Baba because he didn't know him, he knew nothing of him. And so he had this thought: "If Sai Baba is so great, he must know that I have been without food for four days, and that at least one meal a day is necessary to stay alive. Therefore, if I must depend completely on him, he should also see to my necessities". 23 Sai Baba's expression in this portrait is at once intense and compassionate and devotees worship it and meditate on it. The saint himself used to say that there is no difference between his physical self and his image.
24 Lit. 'grace', 'favor'. In particular, food which is offered to a deity or guru during worship.
This food is regarded as sacred and devotees partake of it as a holy communion, i.e. as a token of the deity's or guru's grace.  Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 87-124 A I tried two or three times to make a trip, to go away. I wrote to the ashram of Shivananda, 26 asking to go and live there permanently, and Shivananda wrote to me saying: "Don't come here. You live in a great and holy place. In our ashram there are twenty-four programs at night. You remain in Shirdi and do your best with your sādhanā". That's what he wrote to me. From that ashram once came his secretary, Krishnananda, and he stayed here for six months -today he is back again at Shivananda's ashram. I used to go to a canal near here to take a bath, and so did he. I met him there. I asked him where he came from and he said he came from Shivananda's ashram and that his name was Krishnananda. I then told him I had written a letter to Shivananda and he said: "Yes, yes. I wrote the reply to that letter and Swamiji signed it". Then he told me he wanted to remain in Shirdi because there were many debts that Swamiji had to pay. And he said: "Everyone doesn't ask money to Swamiji, but they come to me, the secretary, and people torment me. That's the reason I came here, and I have no intention of returning to the ashram". Then he went on, saying: "I can't find peace of mind at Rishikesh. Instead, here I have found peace". Then, about six months later, Baba appeared in a dream to Krishnananda and ordered him to return to the Shivananda ashram, to return to his guru. So he went back, but first he went to Swami Nityananda, as I had advised him to do. And also Swami Nityananda told him to go back to his guru. So he returned to Rishikesh and is still living there today. After these things I have told you, I tried to leave Shirdi [he laughs] but it wasn't possible. So I remained. In the early times there were three policemen here in Shirdi: one of the village, one of the Sansthān, and another one. It so happened that someone stole the silver ornaments of Sai Baba. In that period, they didn't allow sādhus and others to remain here for more than three days. I was here, but they didn't allow me to sleep here. Anyhow, I participated in the ārtīs and slept outside the village. One of the policemen asked me: "Why do you stay in Shirdi for so long?". I answered that Baba wanted me to stay here. One time, when I was praying in the Samādhi Mandir, the third policeman told me: "If you don't leave, I'm going to take you to the police station". I told this to Baba. I went to the Dvārakāmāī and told him that they wanted to take me to the police station. I prayed in the Dvārakāmāī, and that same night a circus came to Shirdi. A man from the circus had a fight with that policeman and beat him up. Then he left and I stayed on. However, after a few days, the policeman returned and, upon seeing me, said: "Are you still here?", and I answered: "Yes, certainly. Baba has ordered me to remain here". On another occasion, I really thought I would leave. Indeed, the village people invited me to go, as well as others. But then I said that I wouldn't leave because Baba didn't want me to. A few days later I thought to myself: "This is a very noisy and crowded place. I would prefer to live in a small place where I can meditate". So this time I said to the people: "I'm leaving". But now the very people who kept telling me to go said: "Don't go away. Baba won't allow you to go". Those same people said so. And I tried to leave on another occasion also. I said noth- her: "How is my son?". The nurse was very grave and answered: "It's not possible for him to pull through". But Baba said: "He will be alright", and he blessed the man. He stayed there for a while and then went away. The next day the sick man said he felt well. The nurse told him that the night before his father had come and had inquired about him. The man asked: "My father? What did he look like?". Then the nurse saw a photograph near the bed and said: "That's him". Doctor Swati answered: "That is not my father. That is the Universal Father! He is Sai Baba". Doctor Swati narrated this experience and wrote about it before returning to Delhi. Many facts such as this happen even today. Baba is alive and he appears to devotees, saving their lives. In New York there is a man named Namdev, alias Robert Pink. He has also written a book about Sai Baba. The first time he came here he was suffering from diarrhoea. He came and told me of his problem. I told him to take some udī, mixed with water. But he didn't have any. He went to the toilet, and when he returned to his room he found a packet of udī in his bag. So he told me. He drank some udī and was cured. After that, he made a habit of coming here. He would come and remain a while, collecting episodes from Baba's life, and he wrote a book in English. He wanted to publish it with his own money, he didn't want to collect donations in New York. Thus many foreigners come here and Baba appears to them, helping his devotees.
T You see, before taking samādhi, Baba told his devotees not to worry. He said: "I am eternal. Thus, don't think that I will leave you behind nor that I will die. I am always alive. I will always run to my devotees whenever they are in difficulty. When someone takes refuge in me, or when someone has completely surrendered to me, then I will be with him night and day. My vigil over my devotees will be constant and I will take care of them". Q Is this one of Sai Baba's famous promises? T Yes, this is one of the eleven promises. And the story of the doctor who went to England for an operation proves it. You know, Baba manifests himself suddenly to save his devotees from danger. For example, this Doctor Swati needed an urgent and difficult operation, and was in one of the best hospitals in London. His case was very serious and he was in the intensive care unit, where no one had permission to enter. It happened that a nurse on night duty saw an old man who said he was the father of that patient, and he said that he felt that his son would soon recover. Instead, the hospital personnel and the doctors had lost all hope of saving the patient. They knew he would die within a few hours and that there was no hope for any possible recovery. This is the reason why the night nurse allowed the old man to enter the intensive care unit, although it is normally not allowed. The nurse was convinced that the old man had come all the way from India to have a last look at his dying son, and so she thought: "Why not allow him to enter? Since his son is about to die, let the old father see him". After a few minutes, she looked through the window to see what the old man was doing inside the room. She saw him passing his hand over the patient's body, and walking around the body three or four times. You know, it was as if he meant to keep death away. Baba in this way placed a limit not to be surpassed, a boundary line, beyond which death could not pass. 28 The next morning the hospital personnel arrived and, to their surprise, the patient was better and had regained consciousness! Then the nurse told the sick man that the night before his father had come to see him, and had said he had high hopes that he would recover, and she added: "Well, this has actually happened and today you seem much better". The patient was greatly surprised and thought: "How is it possible that my father came to England from a small village in the Punjab, with all the formalities of passport, visa, etcetera?". So he asked for a description of this old man from the nurse. She pointed her finger at the photograph the patient had brought with him. The patient was a Sikh and he had photographs of Guru Govind, Guru Nanak, and one of Sai Baba, who was his iṣṭadevatā, 29 his favorite deity. The nurse knew nothing of Sai Baba, but seeing his photo on the bedside Recite his name and you will be free, your difficulties will be solved". Therefore, when they come here to Swamiji, he tells them the same thing and they are relieved of their problems. Swamiji tells them: "Those who are sincerely near to Baba and who have prayed to him, those who have sincerely surrendered to him, for them Baba will take care of everything. It's not me. I tell everyone to go to the Dvārakāmāī but this doesn't mean that I am Baba's instrument. I am here as one of you. It is you who have done these things, such as praying to Baba, etcetera". Q Thus you mean to say that it is the devotees themselves who 'force' Baba to intervene and help them, through their faith, śraddhā? T Yes, therefore it is you and Sai Baba, with no one in between. A simple soul and simple mind such as Swamiji tells you this. Other people complicate things, thinking to be instruments, incarnations, etcetera. You know, it is easy to confuse people. I tell you that it is not necessary to go to any presumed incarnation when Baba is present here in Shirdi. Even if we can't see him, because he has left his physical form, he is here spiritually.
Thanks and regards follow.    One time it so happened that Upasni Baba started cooking. He was a Brahmin and he knew how to cook. So one day he thought he should prepare naivedya, food for the guru, and bring it to Baba. That day he went to see Sai Baba who asked him: "Why have you come to me?". Then Upasni replied: "Baba, I have cooked some food and I brought some naivedya for you". But Sai Baba said: "When I came to you, you sent me away. So then why do you come here now?". Then Upasni Maharaj asked: "But Baba, where were you?". He was surprised and felt sorry… Then Sai Baba again told him: "I really did come to see you". And Upasni Baba: "But I haven't seen anyone. There was only a dog with me, inside the temple". Then Sai Baba said: "That was me. And you sent me away". Upasni felt really bad, and again asked Sai Baba: "Was that really you?". And Sai Baba replied: "Yes. I am not in the dog only, or in the cat, etcetera. I fill the entire cosmos, the whole universe". The following day, Upasni Baba was cooking some food and there was a beggar standing near him. He forgot Baba's instructions and… he didn't want to give him anything, since according to our tradition the food which is reserved for a guru or a saint has not to be given to anyone else… It's a strong religious tradition. We don't want anybody else to partake of it. Thus, seeing the beggar, Upasni Baba sent him away. Then, after a few minutes, the food being ready, he went to Sai Baba. But, even before coming close to him, from a distance, Sai Baba shouted at him angrily: "Go away. Why have you come? You told me to leave, so then why do you now come to me?". Then Upasni asked: "But Baba, where were you?". And Baba replied: "I was close to you, and you told me: 'Don't stay here'". Then again Upasni said: "Oh Baba, forgive me, I'm sorry. It was really you who stood in front of me as a beggar?". And Baba said: "Yes. I am in all beings". 34 After this episode took place, a profound inner transformation occurred in Upasni Maharaj. We cannot fully grasp it with our limited intellects, but from a superficial point of view we can say that there was a total transformation. Upasni Baba did not meet with Baba often, still there was radical inner transformation. He continued to do hard manual labor. He was a changed person by then… This is what really counts. This casts light on the relationship which is established between a guru and his disciple, and it shows the greatness of Sai Baba.
Q When did Sati Godavari Mataji arrive here in Sakuri for the first time? A Upasni Maharaj arrived here in 1917. This whole area was a cremation ground at the time; but thanks to him it was transformed into a beautiful place… Thanks to Upasni Baba's spiritual greatness. It became a place of pilgrimage. Around 1924, Godavari Mata arrived in Sakuri for the first time, together with her mother. As a matter of fact, her parents had a devotional nature, and used to visit several pilgrimage sights in Nagpur, Berar, etcetera. Coming here, they passed through Shegaon, where the famous temple dedicated to Gajanan Maharaj 35 is located. Q Ah, so they came from Shegaon? A Yes. Shegaon is Godavari Mata's birthplace. Her childhood was characterized by intense devotional feelings. So, when her parents heard of holy places or holy men, they would visit them. They liked doing this and participating in the worship. When they came here to Upasni Maharaj's place, this was their first visit to Sakuri. It was in the month of January or February 1924. They came with their daughters. Godavari Mata was maybe eight or nine years old at the time. When they first came here, Sakuri was still in its first stage of development. There was Upasni Maharaj's jhoprḍī, his hut, and the mandap 36 where Upasni sat. Many people from all corners of India had come, since the name of Upasni Maharaj had already become famous. They used to take his darshan and then leave. There were lots of flowers, garlands and fruits which the devotees would offer him. Godavari Mata was a little girl, and for this reason she got to sit in the first lines for Upasni Maharaj's darshan. Upasni then placed the garland that a devotee had put on his neck on little Godavari Mata's neck… Then, pointing out various things and places, he said: "Little girl, you will have to take care of all these things in the future". You have to keep in mind that she was only eight or nine years old at the time and that she had never gone to school, having been educated at home. She knew nothing about the world. Upasni Baba's words revealed themselves to be the gospel truth. Then, Godavari Mata stayed in Sakuri for about two or three years, and at the age of twelve she became Upasni Maharaj's disciple. She was his first informal disciple… After Upasni Maharaj's samādhi, which took place in 1941, the whole responsibility fell on Godavari Mataji's shoulders.
Upasni Maharaj left this world on December 24, 1941. After him, for more than forty years, his work of spiritual regeneration and of awakening of consciousness, of transmission of values and spiritual truths to people has been continued by Godavari Mata. Not only did she continue his mission, but she also expanded it through her spiritual fervor. Even Westerners come here to Godavari Mata seeking peace, guidance, and enlightenment. Q Could you tell me what is, in your opinion, the most important teaching Mataji offers, alongside her darshan? How are we to attain peace of mind? A You see, the fundamental teaching of Mataji is that of assuming in one's own self the divine name, nāmasmaraṇ, so as to advance on the spiritual path and gain peace of mind. Peace of mind is gradually reached through the repetition of God's names. This can be done also by people who have worldly duties or who are heads of families. Q Thus she recommends the practice of japa, of nāmasmaraṇ? A Yes. It is nāmasmaraṇ or japa. This is the most important thing; devotion to God, devotion to the guru, bhakti… But I would like to answer by telling you about something which happened some years ago. An American scholar came and he interviewed the mother. He asked Mataji about God-realization. I shall give you the same answer which Mataji gave to that man. Mataji said: "To enquire about God or Godrealization is something which is very remote. Man should first of all behave as a man. At the moment, however, the situation in the world is such that man has lost the qualities of love and compassion toward his fellow-men. But man should behave first of all as a human being, since he has taken this body on himself. Nowadays, however, people live like animals…". You see, before becoming human one must first pass through inferior stages, and then gradually proceed in his evolution. If someone has not yet realized the conditions, the qualities pertaining to his state, he shouldn't even dream or think about successive stages, God-realization, etcetera. Thus, Mataji says that man must first of all behave as a man; only then will he have the right of inquiring about divine realization. All this refers to the basic human values… A sādhaka or not, each individual who lives in the world should have love, compassion toward his fellow beings. If one does not have this, then he is just nothing… Then the values leading to spiritual progress are absent. Spiritual values are the necessary, essential things that one must possess when undertaking the path of God-realization. Without these, you can talk about God, or you can write books, give conferences, etcetera, but all this will be of no use at all. In the spiritual realm, what really counts is personal experience, one has to put the teachings into practice. Into experience. Spirituality must live in your life. It has nothing to do with talking. Do you follow me? Thus, Mataji says that one has to develop these human values; this is true spirituality. It's not just doing japa or performing ārtī. Nor does it mean to pray or train oneself in various kinds and methods of sādhanā. Many people are led astray on this subject… They think they are doing great things, but this is not enough. Rather, the practice of these disciplines should develop and nurture those inner values. In the spiritual path what is required is broadness of vision, broadness of mind, and broadness of heart. Without these qualities, no God-realization or spiritual advancement is possible. People must learn to keep away from demonic qualities. Spiritual practices are worthless if not conducive to an inner transformation. You see, what I want to underline is the fact that man is made up of a divine principle, a human principle, and an animal principle. Thus, each sādhanā has as its goal the elimination and the overcoming of the inferior principles, so as to reach the divine one. The basic qualities, animal and human, must be removed spontaneously. Q Gradually? A Yes. From one's own soul. When the opacity of gold is removed, then it shines in all of its brilliance. Similarly, each one of us is made up, in differing proportions, of rajo guṇa, tamo guṇa, and sattva guṇa. 37 Thus, to be short, I shall say that one needs to remove the rajo guṇa and the tamo guṇa. When the sattva guṇa alone remains, then one becomes a divine man, an exceptional man… Do you follow me? Thus, I'm saying that spiritual practices are indeed necessary, but if the people who come here to practice japa and sādhanā end up torturing people, or having jealousy or hatred for one another, everything loses its meaning. Thus, Mataji says that there are people who, because they come here for many years, think they are saintly. Concerning these individuals, she says: "Rather than defining them devotees, I would call them hypocrites". Mataji uses these terms rarely, but these are the facts… This means that people can go astray on the path. Or that they can lead astray others by thinking they are good devotees, just because they go visit a saint, or live close to him, practicing japa… But what really counts is the change in one's heart. This only counts. There must be divine love, love which embraces the whole universe, for all different kinds of animals, beasts… not just for human beings. This is the mark of true, inner progress. Q Could you explain to me why all the kanyās wear yellow robes? Does the color yellow bear a particular symbolic meaning? A This is their uniform. The color is the color of spirituality, of vairāgya. 38 This is their uniform particularly at this moment, when the pūjā is celebrated. In this way, they are distinguishable from householders and other women… Without putting on those yellow sāṛīs, they could not perform any kind of yajña nor pūjās, as for example the Satyanārāyaṇa pūjā 39 or any other pūjā. In Marāṭhī, these sāṛīs are called deśnivastra, silken garments, which are used by Brahmins. These robes are never used for worldly pursuits. The guiding idea which inspires the wearing of these robes is the following: the preservation of sanctity. For this 37 According to Sāṃkhya philosophy, the three constituents of nature (prakṛti): obscurity/ ignorance and inertia (tamas), activity and passion (rajas), luminosity/knowledge and goodness (sattva).
38 Lit. 'loss of color, growing pale'. It comes to mean dispassion, detachment, indifference to worldly objects and desires.
39 A popular rite performed when some new undertaking is begun or to insure good fortune in the coming year. Satyanārāyaṇa is a form of Viṣṇu as the embodiment of truth. reason, they are kept separate from other clothes and are employed only at ritual times, so as to preserve purity… Q What happens when a girl becomes a kanyā? Must she undergo a period of novitiate? A It happens all in a very spontaneous and natural way. Indeed, you raise an important question. See, the kanyās are not accepted too readily… I shall explain this. There were many families which used to come to Sakuri for years… to the ashram of Upasni Baba. They would come for thirty, even forty years in a row… So, their daughters would come along with them, and would remain here for several days. Thus, very naturally, by a law of transmission, these girls would inherit divine qualities, of bhakti and devotion. Sometimes, when they came to visit together with their families, the girls would express the wish of remaining here with the other kanyās. Their inner desire would then be further kindled. At this point, one of the novices, by seeing the lifestyle of the rest of the kanyās, their habits, etcetera could start to think of living here permanently, like the others. But, even in this case, the girl is not accepted immediately. When she tells Mataji about her wish to stay, Mataji will talk to her parents and might say: "Let her remain here, but only for a period of time". Thus, she is not immediately taken as a kanyā nor is she initiated. Mataji will say: "Remain here for just a period of time". This probation period usually lasts three or four years. Q Does the girl wear a particular robe during this time? A No. Unless she becomes a kanyā, she will not wear their robes. These four years represent the probation period for the girl. Not less than three, four years. During this time, she will come to understand in her heart if she feels fit to live like that for the rest of her life. The ascetic life is full of difficulties if compared to family life. See, there are no comforts in such a life. There are fasts, and one undergoes physical and mental strains. Here, from dawn to dusk, one must remember God's name, practice nāmasmaraṇ. One needs to be constantly fixed in the divine awareness. This means that it is necessary to totally forget the world… It's a life of contemplation, of meditation, of practice of japa. In every way and in every form, one is concentrating himself on the Supreme. Thus, one must forget about himself and the world, about himself and his own body. Not everyone can do this. So, in this probation period, the girl will come to realize by herself if she has the resources and the desire to continue leading such a life… If then Mataji thinks it right to give her initiation, then she will initiate her and will accept her as her kanyā and disciple. Not otherwise. Thus, this is a very natural and gradual process… Moreover, it might happen that a kanyā does not feel like continuing the monastic life anymore. In this case, she can think about it for several days, and then autonomously decide to go back into the world. Q Thus, there is total freedom in this choice? A Yes. It's not necessary for all the girls to be here… See, Upasni Baba used to say: "Not all girls must necessarily become householders, just as not all girls must feel drawn to abandon the world". Thus, only a few of them end up living here. They represent a model and an inspiration to the others and to all the people who come visit this place. The girls who come here often derive inspiration from seeing them. Then, an inner transformation occurs. See, spirituality, Vedānta phi-

Antonio Rigopoulos
Maestri, testi e fonti d'Oriente | Masters, Texts and Sources of the East 2 117 Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 87-124 losophy, God-realization are not limited in space and time… According to the spiritual qualities of a person, they are utilized in worldly activities. This is what really counts. Q When a girl becomes a kanyā, after the four-year probation period, does she have special meetings with Mataji at certain hours of the day? Or, rather, Mataji often talks to them freely…? A As in college education one must undergo a curricula with BA, MA, etcetera, when a kanyā is ordained, she is in her initial stage of spiritual development. Here also, one must undergo a training, that is, go through stages of development. Besides the practice of japa and meditation, the kanyā must study Sanskrit and the Vedas. Then, gradually, she will go more and more in depth… This is necessary so as to guarantee the best training… After three or four years, the kanyā, as a good student reaching maturity, will evolve and develop herself. There is then the issue of the relationship of the kanyās with Mataji. All of them are Mataji's disciples. Mataji gives darshan every morning at 10 a.m. to everyone who is present in the ashram. Besides this, in the afternoon there is a period of about half an hour in which all the kanyās go to Mataji's room and stay in her company. Q Thus, if a kanyā has a problem she can talk about it with Mataji? A Yes, she talks about it with Mataji. At the afternoon meeting, or Afterward, or whenever she wishes to do so… When she wants to see Mataji, she can go directly to see her. Things are arranged thus. Anyway, there is always a meeting of all the kanyās with Mataji in the afternoon. Usually, they talk about issues concerning God-realization, or about good books, or about saints… Moreover, since Mataji is the guru, 40 the kanyās want to know things which concern the guru. This is the way they pass their time. Q How many kanyās reside here at present? A Now there are about sixty kanyās. Upasni Maharaj initiated twentyfive, and Mataji in a forty-year period has initiated about thirty-five. Thus, in total they are about sixty. Q Do they live here all the time or do they travel as well? A They reside here permanently since it is here where their inspiration abides. It is precisely because they all reside here that the institution is kept alive. However, it occasionally happens that the kanyās may go somewhere to celebrate yajñas or other religious functions along with Mataji. Q Nearby or even far away from here? A Outside Sakuri. Maharaj's discourses… His talks concern God-realization, ethics, spirituality, Vedānta. Also, some discourses concern education and familyplanning. Just imagine what it was like to preach birth control here in India… He was one of the first to come up with this idea, about sixty years before the law became operative. Thus, he also concerned himself with social issues. However, his main emphasis was on topics such as the guru, God-realization, japa, tapas 42 … He was a man of God, and these were his principal themes of discussion. Sometimes, however, it happened that people would ask him about social problems, and then he would express his views. So, there are these lectures which take place up to around 10 a.m., for ten, fifteen minutes. At 10, Godavari Mata comes and grants her darshan. At that time, visitors arrange themselves in lines so as to see her. This lasts about thirty minutes. Then, there is an ārtī at the temple and also at the jhoprḍī which starts at 11 and which ends around 12, 12:30. The evening ārtī is first celebrated inside the temple at dusk. This is performed between 7 and 8 p.m. Then it's dinner time, from 8 to 9 p.m. At that time, the diṇḍī 43 begins. Diṇḍī means that the kanyās come out in procession and recite bhajans. When they finally reach the jhoprḍī, the main place, then the night ārtī is celebrated. This final ārtī is over around 10:30 p.m. This is the usu-41 Lit. 'Upasni's nectar-speech'.
42 Lit. 'heat'. Ascetic practices, that is, the warmth generated by such austerities.
43 A group led by a leader, participating in a pilgrimage or procession. al schedule of activities. Besides this, from 6 to 7 p.m. the kanyās sing bhajans and then a lecture follows. It is a kanyā who does this pravacana. 44 It is similar to what a student does when he takes a philosophical text like the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, the Rāmāyaṇ or the Yogavāsiṣṭha and then gives a presentation concerning that text… In this speech, the kanyā explains, from her point of view, the philosophical thought that characterizes the text, the ideas which are expounded in the passages she has chosen to comment upon. Q Could you explain what constitutes the uniqueness of this Sakuri ashram? A See, when you go visit saintly people, bhakti, nāmasmaraṇ, the reading of sacred texts, meditation, bhajans, all these are common things, you find them in every ashram. However, every institution and each individual has its own peculiarities, its own special characteristics. Thus, here in Sakuri, Upasni Baba's foremost contribution to Hinduism or more generally to world philosophy is that of having created a religious institution for women only, and of having established the practice of yajñas. Q Also, allowing Vedic recitation to women is quite exceptional, isn't it? A This concerns the practice of yajñas. The fact is that in India there are very few institutions which are open to women aspiring to lead a spiritual life. As you know, in the West there are many nunneries, and actually I have read that these institutions first arose in the West. In India there are very few. This is one of them, and also one of the best organized. For example, the Ramakrishna Mission 45 has some, and there are others founded by Anandamayi Ma… 46 Still, the Sakuri ashram is beyond doubt one of the best. Kanyās and brahmacāriṇīs 47 come here from all over India, they don't come only from the Nagar District 48 or Maharashtra. They belong to all castes and creeds; it's their spiritual anguish which brings them. Q Do they really come here from all over India? A Yes. All day long they are busy with bhajans, ārtīs, various sādhanās, etcetera. Their mind is constantly fixed on God. This is their curricula here. The practice of yajña also constitutes something which is unique to this place. This is the only place in India where you can find women who are skilled in yajñas' celebrations and in the chanting of Vedic hymns. There are seven yajña celebrations during the year. Sometimes people question the right of women to celebrate them, since they 44 Oral instruction, exposition and interpretation of a text.
45 Started in 1897 by Swami Vivekananda, the Ramakrishna Mission, with orders of both monks and nuns, had and still has as its main tasks the teaching of social reform, the performance of works of education and social service, and the preaching of a Vedāntic universalism. The Ramakrishna Mission is a well-organized community, maintaining numerous colleges, high schools, hostels and hospitals and publishing an impressive amount of religious literature. It seems fairly certain that Mataji's birth was blessed by Gajanan Maharaj's grace, which was granted to her parents. Apparently, Gajanan Maharaj told them that "he would have a great soul be born in their family". This soul is Mataji.
I Thus, there seems to be a connection between Gajanan Maharaj, Godavari Mataji, and Shirdi Sai Baba… A Mataji's father could not have children, so Mataji's grandfather was very worried about this. For this reason, Mataji's grandfather used to go see Gajanan Maharaj; he was a great devotee of his. Once, Gajanan Maharaj told him: "Why do you worry? I shall give you what other saints would never grant you. I myself will be born in your family". Then, Mataji's grandfather asked him: "How shall I know that you will be born in my family?". Then Gajanan Maharaj told him that the birth would be characterized by special signs and events, and he described these to him. When Godavari Mataji was born, her grandfather saw these signs described by Gajanan Maharaj happen. Thus, he was convinced that it was he, Gajanan Maharaj, who had come back on earth again. Often, Gajanan Maharaj had on his lips the words Gaṅgā and Godā, 50 since these are the names of the sacred rivers of India. Thus, remembering Gajanan Maharaj and his words, his prasād, the grandfather gave her the name of Godavari. This is the story concerning her name… 49 Another name of Gaṇeśa meaning 'lord of the gaṇas', i.e. of the troops, especially those attendant upon Śiva. Gaṇapati is the lord of wisdom.
50 The Ganges and the Godāvarī, the sacred river of Maharashtra passing by Sakuri.  In Shirdi, in the Leṇḍī gardens, 6:45 p.m. We later went to the Sansthān. Tomorrow morning, after 11 a.m., I should have the much awaited interview with the Sansthān's manager. We'll see. This evening I will participate in the palanquin (pālkhī) procession. Tomorrow will be the big day of the samādhi celebrations. By now the crowds have increased a lot; I think there must be around five or six thousand people. And tomorrow will certainly be the most crowded day being the holiest day of the year. All in all, this was another fruitful day. I also recorded the singing of all ārtīs. 9:40 p.m., in my room. Participated in the pālkhī procession which started from the Dvārakāmāī. There was an intense spiritual atmosphere. The masjid is truly a sacred place and one can feel the holy presence. I pictured in my mind Sai Baba when at night in front of the fire of the dhunī repeated 'Allāh Mālik' or when during the day held his darbār and met visitors giving them blessings, telling them stories and asking for dakṣiṇā. His portrait, an oil painting, is beautiful: he looks alive and his eyes are most powerful and penetrating. During the procession I met with a woman devotee of Sai Baba and Sri Narayan Baba and had a nice talk with her. She told me I will be able to meet Sri Narayan Baba if I go to his ashram in Panvel, a suburb of Bombay. She very much encouraged me to go see him. She is a nice person, with a charming smile. I'll see if I can make it. This is all for today. I am exhausted and go straight to bed.

Impressions after a brief visit to Homi Baba, a Parsi holy man. These comments were recorded soon after my visit.
Homi Baba recites a mantra or a prayer in front of a Sai Baba image while surrounded by many devotees, most of them Parsi. My interpreter Swami Shekhar Rao tells me that Homi Baba was a disciple of Meher Baba, or at least that he met with Meher Baba in the past. This, however, will later be denied by Homi Baba. It is eleven years now that Homi Baba lives in Shirdi, dressing in the same way as Sai Baba used to dress.
He has a small ashram and Parsi devotees of Sai Baba always come to pay their respects to Homi Baba. I think their presence in Shirdi is a testimony of Sai Baba's universalist spirit. Homi Baba strikes me as being an odd character; his ways are strange and rough. In particular, a bizarre feature of his deserves mention: he gives darshan to people by pulling up his shirt, claiming that the hair on his chest, in the region of the heart, has arranged itself so as to 'create' an image of Sai Baba sitting in his cross-legged posture. Lots of people come to Homi Baba to witness this performance of his. Unfortunately, I was unable to detect Sai Baba's outline in his hairy chest. Today he could not receive us being busy with the preparations for Sai Baba's samādhi anniversary. I will try to speak to him in a few days. At the end of our conversation, Shri Deshpande Saheb shows me various other photos and lets me choose three to keep for myself.

Antonio Rigopoulos
Excerpts From My Diary 8 a.m. Woke up at 5:30 a.m. It is quite chilly here in the early morning. Participated in the solemn procession and in the abhiṣeka, the consecration and bathing of Sai Baba's mūrti, the marble statue inside the Samādhi Mandir. I took several photos. Despite the huge crowds and long queues, I could feel the people's intense devotion on this special occasion. Remarkably, I haven't seen a single Westerner around. My presence is clearly regarded as something strange or unusual and indeed many Indians look at me with a mix of curiosity and surprise.
Later, I had a short conversation with Baldev Girme reporting information on Abdul Baba which he got from the custodian of Abdul Baba's tomb in Shirdi. Even this little information may turn out to be precious. I offered udī, the sacred ash, at the margosa or nīm tree where the samādhi of Sai Baba's guru is supposedly located. Must come here and offer it again next Thursday or Friday evening, before leaving Shirdi (all evils and ailments are said to be cured by burning incense here on Thursdays and Fridays). Today is undoubtedly the holiest day for all Sai Baba devotees. 1 p.m. This morning around 10 I had a great blessing: I was allowed to have Sai Baba's darshan in the Samādhi Mandir and to go up to his tomb! It was an incredible honor to be allowed to go up to the samādhi, place some garlands on it, and also touch it. A rare grace indeed which was made possible thanks to Appa Saheb Borawke, whom I was permitted to accompany up to the samādhi for his daily offering of fresh, beautiful roses. Baldev Girme was also with us. Later, I took some photos of Appa Saheb Borawke and also of Shri Deshpande Saheb, Meher Baba's photographer.
I was able to speak for quite a long time with a trustee of the Sansthān, Prakash V. Karkhanis from Bombay, a chartered accountant who is an acute and brilliant young man. I could not record our conversation, however. We

Figure 69
The queue of devotees going to the Samādhi Mandir

Figure 70
Sai Baba's mūrti in the Samādhi Mandir. A temple priest offers flowers to it while a devotee prostrates himself at its feet

Figure 71
Sai Baba's mūrti in the Samādhi Mandir. A woman devotee prostrates at its feet discussed in English about Indian culture and the primacy it gives to silence and the unspoken, of the dangers of Westernization as a test for India -according to him, India will pass such test after the sacrifice of a generation -of divine śakti that incarnates from age to age, and of Sai Baba and his teachings (a nonverbal instruction, implying surrender or śaraṇāgati, pure devotion and religious tolerance, universalism). He emphasized Sai Baba's use of symbols, which were so mysterious, and he mentioned his frequent wraths. With regard to Sai Baba's behavior, he tended to offer a psychological interpretation. He told me that to concentrate on the issue of Sai Baba's origins is futile and absurd. He said that one must rather follow his own conscience and not go after names and forms (nāma-rūpa). Moreover, he spoke of sacrifice as that which unites all Indians, despite their many differences due to language, customs, area of provenance, etcetera. He argued that self-sacrifice is innate in Indian culture and that it is only through it that one achieves full joy, ānanda.
Had to be careful to what I said. I sensed a certain air of superiority in Prakash Karkhanis' tone and words, a sort of challenge directed to me since in his eyes I represent the evil and ignorant West. But of course I understand his attitude and feelings. Indians have very good reasons for being upset with Westerners. And I know that my position must always be that of an open listener, without prejudice. I must listen with utmost care, keeping my 'windows,' i.e. my ears, wide open. It was a fine conversation on some basic concepts and on how one should approach Indian culture which I think was enriching for both of us. Mr. Karkhanis also spoke of the Shirdi Sansthān and its need of a trust. He confirmed to me that at present there are twenty-two members plus a Manager or Executive Officer that depend upon the Bombay City Civil Court. The Chairman of the Sansthān is Shri P.K. Sawant from Bombay, whereas the Executive Officer is Shri R.D. Banne. He underlined that there is an interchange and mutual collaboration between the various members and organs of the Sansthān and that the organization has only charitable aims.
Must certainly come back to the Sansthān, also for purchasing old copies of the Sai Leela magazine. This afternoon, around 5, I should go see Balaji Pilaji Gurav for another interview. And tomorrow at 6 p.m. I should go visit Appa Saheb Borawke's son at his home.
Baldev Girme reported to me some other anecdotes that Uddhao Madhavrao Deshpande told him about Sai Baba. For instance, when Sai Baba cooked at the masjid, he would often thrust his own hand in the boiling pot in order to mix and stir its contents, never using any ladle, and suffered no consequences, i.e. he never burned himself.
This morning I also visited the local Lakṣmī temple which happens to be very close to my hotel. Apparently it was at this spot that Sai Baba cured one Bala Ganpat Shimpi from malarial fever by ordering him to feed a black dog. 1 Had a good lunch. Unfortunately, I have a lot of mosquito bites especially on my arms. Lots of mosquito come out at night. But for the rest I'm ok. Now I must take a good shower and prepare myself for this afternoon. 6:10 p.m. I interviewed Balaji Pilaji Gurav for the second time. We had a nice conversation, not too long. It's enough for today. This evening at 9 I will again participate in the pālkhī procession.
Tomorrow I'll have to wake up very early in order to attend the various functions and the kākaḍ ārtī, which starts at 5:15 a.m. In the morning I will try to interview the Swami who is the custodian of the local Mārutī temple, who has been living here for the past fifteen years. Then in the afternoon we shall again try to meet with Homi Baba. At 6 p.m. Baldev Girme will come to pick me up with his car and take me to the home of Appa Saheb Borawke's son.
For what concerns the recording of interviews I think I'm almost done. I've seen all the important people here in Shirdi. Anyway, will try to see if I can arrange some extra meetings. Up until now I have collected about eight, nine hours of recordings, which are a lot. I'm satisfied with the results.

Interviews of the day
In Shirdi, near to Abdul Baba's tomb, 7:30 a.m.

Conversation with Shri Baldev Girme, reporting information on Abdul Baba which he got from the custodian of Abdul Baba's samādhi in Shirdi.
Baldev Girme says: Abdul Baba was a great devotee of Sai Baba. He was a married man. After his marriage, his wife bore a son but before he was born he left home. He travelled, visiting many places in India, holy places. It was Tajuddin Baba who directed him to come to Sai Baba of Shirdi. It was only Tajuddin Baba who told Abdul Baba he should become a disciple of Sai Baba. "He is the Omnipotent", Tajuddin Baba told him, "He is Allāh". Till the end, Abdul Baba was with Sai Baba. With regard to Abdul Baba's life, there are several reports in various books you can read; they are written with sufficient reliability. Abdul Baba took samādhi on April 2, 1954.  5 This story call to mind a similar one, in which the orthodox Brahmin Vasudevananda Sarasvati (1854Sarasvati ( -1914, also known as Tembe Swami, had asked one Pundalikrao to present a coconut to Sai Baba on his behalf; see Dabholkar, Shri Sai Satcharita: The Life and Teachings of Shirdi Sai Baba, 844-9 (ch. 51, vv. 125-83).
T There were many people who daily received dakṣiṇā from Baba: two āṇās, four āṇās, fifteen rupees, twenty rupees, etcetera. Q Are you saying that Shyama was the one who decided about distributing the food among the people? T He acted as a kind of supervisor.
Balaji Pilaji continues: Kaka Saheb Dixit told Upasni Maharaj that the situation was not right. He said: "You have been here for six months now. You may well leave". So he told him. Q Do you mean to say that he stayed in Shirdi for six months without ever paying for the food he was given? T Yes. Kaka Saheb Dixit offered this service in those days. He would serve food to devotees. Balaji Pilaji: At Khaṇḍobā's temple someone said: "This fellow has gone crazy, wandering around naked". People told him: "This is not good: put on something". Q What about the food, how did he manage if nobody gave him any? A There were two ladies there, Sardabai and Durgabai. They brought food to Upasni Baba. Q Thus these two ladies would bring food to Upasni Maharaj at Khaṇḍobā's temple. Could you please repeat their names? A Sardabai and Durgabai. Q Did Sai Baba ever speak in parables, did he ever tell stories? A Baba would tell stories to people on various subjects. Baba would always speak in Marāṭhī or in Hindī. He would use both these languages, as others did. He would tell stories daily. I Thus he would narrate stories daily… T Yes, yes. Q Could you tell me one? A No. I have forgot. Q Did you ever see Baba practicing yogic exercises? Did he practice any āsanas 7 here in Shirdi? A I have already told you in the first interview… Of that mahātmā who came here from Haridvar and was staying at the Mārutī temple and who discussed yoga with Sai Baba, etcetera. 8 Q Is it true that Sai Baba would often sit in this posture inside the Dvārakāmāī [I imitate his cross-legged posture]? A Not always. Only sometimes he would sit like that. I Only sometimes… T Yes. I I ask this question since Baba, in most pictures, is portrayed in this posture. T Yes, but only at times he would sit that way. Q Was he used to keep other particular postures? T No. He would sit in an ordinary manner. Just like us now. Q Perhaps in padmāsana? 9 T No, no, nothing… Like us now, cross-legged.
Balaji Pilaji: Baba did not keep any particular āsana. He would not do āsanas in front of people nor at other times. Q Thus, he wouldn't always sit in that particular posture? T No. Just sometimes, when he sat on the stone which is in the masjid: then only would he sit that way. Q Could you tell me something about Sri Narayan Baba? A Sri Narayan Baba has been coming to Shirdi since 1960. He behaves like all other devotees… He comes and goes. Q Thus he is like any ordinary devotee? A I can tell you about Ram Baba. He is about one hundred and thirty years old, but although he is so old he wasn't here during Sai Baba's times. Q Oh, so he wasn't here during Sai Baba's lifetime? T No, so says Pilaji Gurav. In subsequent years, however, he was always coming and going from Shirdi. Q Ram Baba used to come and go from Shirdi after Sai Baba's samādhi? T Yes, right. Q Not before? T No.

Excerpts From My Diary
12:35 p.m., at my hotel room. It was an excellent morning. I was able to interview another old man who knew Sai Baba. His name is Shri Pandharinath Bhagavant Gonkar and he was just twelve years old when Sai Baba took samādhi. This is the sixth old man that we have been able to identify who met Sai Baba in the old days! We had a pleasant conversation. Afterward, I and Swami Shekhar Rao went to visit the keeper of the Mārutī or Hanumān temple, whose name is Shri Ramdas Vithobaji Hajare. He is fifty-five years old and has been living here for the past fifteen years. It was a fine conversation during which he told us how he was called to Shirdi. I then interviewed for the second time Uddhao Madhavrao Deshpande, Shyama's son. This was an excellent interview; it lasted more than half an hour during which he narrated various incidents and anecdotes. I thus started recording my sixth mini-cassette, having recorded more than nine hours of interviews. Though it really took a lot of work, these hard-earned tapes are most precious and indeed priceless given their special contents.
I then participated in the final ceremonies of Puṇyatithi. Some very nice kīrtans in Kṛṣṇa's praise were sung, followed by dances and acrobatic feats. The atmosphere was very joyous and fraternal. Then, at noon sharp, the festival was officially brought to a close with the symbolic breaking of a pot containing curds, sweets, and other things by means of a long, red stick. A beautiful flower garland was hung inside the Samādhi Mandir. I took a few photos. This was a wonderful ceremony and a huge crowd attended it. Now the crowds should diminish, given that many devotees are expected to leave after Puṇyatithi.
Swami Shekhar Rao thinks that during the last three days about fifty thousand people came to Shirdi for attending the solemn celebrations. According to him, an average of two thousand people come to Shirdi on any 9 Shirdi Wednesday, October 23, 1985 ordinary day. It's quite a sustained influx of pilgrims and I'm inclined to believe him given his long experience as a resident. The weather is always nice and sunny; it is hot but the heat is bearable. I'm quite tired due to the intense rhythm of the work and our constant moving around but I'm very pleased with the results. In a short while I'll go down to the restaurant and have lunch. I'll then have a rest until 4 p.m. 5:20 p.m. We tried to interview Homi Baba but couldn't meet him because there were too many people at his place, it was really so busy. Will give it another try tomorrow around 8 a.m. Homi Baba is bizarre. He claims that Sai Baba's image is discernible on his chest's hair, in the seat of the heart, and thus he shows his chest to everyone as if he is giving a darshan of sorts. I couldn't 'see' it frankly. In a short while we should go pay a visit to Appa Saheb Borawke's son at his house. 11:15 p.m., at my hotel room. Together with Baldev Girme, we had a very pleasant and instructive evening at the house of Vasant Shankar Borawke, Appa Saheb Borawke's son. It looks like Appa does not like the Sakuri ashram very much but the reason is unclear. They showed us various slides of their trips to Delhi, Shimla, and Kashmir. Had a good dinner. The house is beautiful, very big, and they look like a nice and happy family. They are certainly quite rich, being landowners. In this area their main cultivation is that of sugarcane. I told them about me and my research, and the atmosphere was cheerful and relaxed. They were all pleased to meet me and curious to know about my interest in Sai Baba and Indian religion. Got back to my hotel room around 11 p.m. I'm really exhausted and go straight to bed.

Conversation with Shri Pandharinath Bhagavant Gonkar. He was twelve years old when Sai Baba passed away.
Q What do you remember of the time when Baba took samādhi? T He used to see Baba every day… Pandharinath Bhagavant Gonkar: Baba used to give me prasād only. Not money or other things.
Q Did you ever have the chance of speaking to Baba? Did Baba ever tell you anything? A When I went to the masjid to meet Baba, Baba gave me prasād and told me to sit in the masjid for a while. Q He told you this only? To sit? T Yes, to sit… Baba was very loving with him. Baba would say to Mister Gonkar to sit down and rest in the masjid for a while. Q What did Baba use to do in those days? What was his daily routine? A I was very young at the time, so I went to the masjid only every once in a while. I would meet Baba and then go back. Q Do you remember anything in particular which you think would be of importance about Baba? A No. Baba would only give me prasād. Nothing else. Q How did Baba use to bless people? By imposing his hands? A Yes, he would impose his hands. He would give āśīrvād, blessings.
When blessing, Baba would say the words: "Allāh baṛā karegā", meaning 'God will do everything to help you'. Q "Allāh rakhegā…"? T "Allāh baṛā karegā". It means: 'God will do', 'He will help'. Q In which language did Baba speak? A Urdu and Marāṭhī. Q Did he speak Hindī also? T Yes, even Hindī. Q Thus he could speak Urdu, Marāṭhī, and Hindī? T Yes. Urdu, Marāṭhī, and Hindī. So Baba would speak to the people. Q What happened soon after Sai Baba's samādhi? A I don't remember, I was too young. T He is only eighty years old… Q Did you ever see Baba getting angry? A Sometimes, if devotees made mistakes, only then did Baba get angry and also punish, beat [laughs]. He did so even to have fun, as a game. He didn't want to hurt. Q Did Baba ever give you udī? A Yes. Sometimes he gave me udī. Q What's the power of udī? A [laughing] As soon as Baba gave the udī, one would put it on the forehead, and then he would also eat some of it. Usually the udī was taken with water. So Baba used to bless. I've seen with my own eyes Baba giving daily fifty rupees to Tatya Kote Patil.
Q Fifty rupees? T Fifty rupees, to Tatya Kote Patil. Daily… Q Do you know anything about Upasni Maharaj? A I saw Upasni Baba stay here in Shirdi for about two years. Then Baba got angry with him, and sent him to Sakuri to live. Q Baba got angry with him? T Yes, he got angry with Upasni Maharaj and thus sent him to Sakuri. I I don't understand this. Everybody up till now has told me that Upasni Maharaj was a great guru… T I have heard that Upasni Baba did something here in Shirdi which wasn't good, so villagers developed a bad opinion about him. They went to Sai Baba and told him that Upasni Baba did this and that, and said he shouldn't remain any longer in Shirdi. "Otherwise we will teach him a lesson", so they said. Only then did Sai Baba send Upasni Maharaj to Sakuri. Q Can you tell me anything about Meher Baba? T No, he doesn't know anything about him. Q What about Basheer Baba or Narayan Baba? T No, he knows nothing about them. Q What did Baba do when he was inside the masjid? Did he contemplate the fire of the dhūnī, talk with people? What do you remember? A At that time I was only ten or twelve years old and so I don't remember much. Anyway, Baba used to sit near the fire of the dhūnī, reciting the names of God, or saying "Allāh Mālik" to himself. There were also many people who met with Baba. Q Were there many dogs, cats, and birds entering the masjid? A At that time there were several dogs, with Baba. Baba would give them food. Every time, at each meal, they would take food with Baba. Q What was the reason that brought you here to visit Shirdi Sai Baba? T But he is a villager of Shirdi… Q Oh, you are a Shirdi villager! A Yes. Q Do you remember any story about Baba? T He was too small at the time, thus he doesn't remember much. Q So then, four or five years after Baba's samādhi, who was responsible here for organizing things? A After Baba's samādhi, Tatya Kote Patil, Bayajibai, Lakshmibai Shinde and two other people were in charge of the upkeep of the samādhi. Q Thus these were the people who first got control of the situation. T Yes. Q At that time were there many devotees coming from outside Shirdi? A In those days, some devotees from outside came to have darshan of Baba and then they would return home. Q Were they coming from nearby villages? A Yes, from nearby villages but also from Bombay, from Gujarat, from Madras, from Nagpur… Q From lots of places then? T Yes, from lots of places. Many came from Madras, Nagpur, and especially Bombay. Now Mister Pandharinath Bhagavant Gonkar is tired, it's enough for today. I Thank you so much for your time and kindness. Q Do you mean food, clothing, etcetera? T Yes. He got food and clothing from villagers and Baba devotees… Lots of devotees come here also, to visit the Hanumān temple. Q What do you feel for Sai Baba? A When I worked at the mill near Wardha as a laborer, I once saw a photo of Baba. That was the first time I saw him. Baba communicated something to me. So I decided to come to Shirdi. I passed through Shegaon so as to visit Gajanan Maharaj, then I passed through Nasik and there, at the Mārutī temple in Tryambakeshvar, I had that vision. From there I came directly to Shirdi. Q What do you think is the most important teaching of Sai Baba? T You know, he never met with Baba himself… I Of course. But as a devotee, as a renunciant, he might have something to say on this. A I wouldn't know how to answer. It's only because of my faith that I am now here, living in this Mārutī temple. Q How have things changed in Shirdi from the time you first came here? A Many things have changed in these fifteen years. There has been an increase in the number of devotees coming, the pilgrims are a lot more now. Q Thus there are many more nowadays?

Second conversation with Uddhavrao (Uddhao) Madhavrao Deshpande, seventy-nine years old, son of the deceased Madhavrao Deshpande alias Shyama who was among the closest devotees of Sai Baba, often acting as his intermediary.
Uddhao recounts: When Baba liked to cook, vessels were brought inside the masjid. There is the fire of the dhūnī there, you must have seen it… A fellow called Madhav Phasle poured water into the vessels and helped Baba. Then Baba would cook the food. Madhav helped Baba to wash and cut the vegetables and Baba then placed them inside the vessels. Then he would mix the vegetables with the rice. Vegetables and rice together… for cooking. Baba also used to put sugar candies inside the vessels. He himself would put his hand in the vessel for mixing the food. Q Didn't he burn his hand that way? A Baba wanted to mix the food this way, up and down. Baba used his own hand, no utensils. Q And didn't he burn himself? A No, no. Nothing happened, it remained as it was. He did the mixing for about two or three minutes in a row. Nonetheless, he didn't suffer from any burns. Q Do you remember any other incident you would like to mention? A One of the faqīrs, of the Mohammedans, was here in those days. He came from Malegaon and he used to stay in Shirdi with Baba. Daily Baba would give him fifteen rupees. And he gave from thirty to fifty rupees to Tatya Kote Patil. Sometimes thirty rupees, thirty-five, forty, and so on. Many people received from him ten rupees, five rupees, two rupees, fifteen rupees, etcetera. In this way they received money from Baba. Q Was there a special time for Baba's distribution of money? For instance, did he do this in the evening or at some other time of the day? A Only in the evening would he distribute the money. Q So in the morning he would ask for dakṣiṇā and in the evening he would give away the money? A Yes. Whatever the amount of dakṣiṇā Baba received, he would give it away in the evening. Baba used to go out for his round of begging around 8 a.m. 3 He would go to certain houses. When doing this, Baba cried: "Mā bhākrīān", which means: 'Mother, give me some bread'. Q Could you repeat this expression, please? A He would say: "Mā bhākrīān", or "Mā roṭīān" meaning: 'Mother, give me some food, a piece of bread'. When Baba went out to beg for alms, Buti Saheb and Nana Saheb Nimonkar used to go with him. Q What would they do then?
Maestri, testi e fonti d'Oriente | Masters, Texts and Sources of the East 2 159 Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 151-162 A They would support him and help him walk. You know, Baba would go to certain houses and they went along with him in order to help him. Q Have you seen this yourself? A Yes. I have seen it with my own eyes. Q I know, from having read the books, that your father Shyama had a kind of privileged relationship with Baba. He was often the man who gave a devotee the opportunity of talking with Baba. Thus, he was very close to him, perhaps the closest of all. 4 Do you remember anything about this relationship? Is it true? A A family from Hyderabad once came to Shirdi to see Baba. They couldn't have issue, so they came to Baba for his blessings, in order to have children. The first time they came, Baba refused to bless them. He said: "It depends upon your faith. I can't give you grace". When the couple came out of the masjid, they decided to go and see Shyama, my father. The two were weeping, and explained the situation to Shyama. They pleaded: "Ask him to bless us so that we can have children". Shyama then went to Baba and insistently asked that he bless the couple 'by any way'. After two days, Baba finally agreed to give them a coconut to eat… Q Was that symbolic of the birth of a child? A Yes. For having issue. Q And this happened because your father interceded for them? A Yes, he helped them that way. Baba gave them a whole coconut, and after twelve months a child was born. After this, they came back to Shirdi again to meet with Baba. 5 Q Was there any particular reason that Shyama was so close to Baba? A No, Baba didn't give him anything. Q What about the statue of Gaṇapati? A Yes, he was given that Gaṇeśa mūrti alone. Q That only? A Yes, that only. Q Did Baba ever give money to Shyama, as a gift? T At that time Shyama was well-to-do. He was a landlord, I think. A A landlord? T Yes. This is the reason why Baba never gave him money or other things.
This mūrti of Gaṇeśa is an exception.
Uddhao recounts: I had a grandfather in Baba's times. He had some problems with his thighs, and was to be operated on by a doctor. My grandfather came to 4 On Shyama, Dabholkar writes: "Those who wished to have a quiet, undisturbed conversation with Baba, would always take Madhavrao with them, initially. He would then introduce the topic in soft sweet tones as to who had come, from where and for what purpose. On this introduction, Samarth [= Sai Baba] would then be induced to converse". Moreover: "It was he whom Baba liked better than anybody else; whose love for Baba defied comparison with anyone else's and whose authority too, was very great... For Madhavrao, Baba had an extraordinary affection -as if he was his own child"; Shri Shirdi, met with Baba, told him he had to be operated on, and asked him what was to be done. Then Baba applied some leaves on his sick leg and wrapped it with a cloth. Three days after Baba's intervention he was cured from his illness, without the need of a doctor.
Q Was this a miracle of Sai? A Yes, and I saw it in person.
Uddhao adds: My grandfather had a daughter and wanted her to get married. Before the marriage he came to Shirdi and met with Baba, because of his health problems, as I said. It was on that occasion that Baba cured him in that way, in three days' time.
Q What about his daughter? A She got married. Q Did Baba celebrate the wedding? A No, no. It was celebrated by other people. Q Thus your grandfather came to Baba only for his leg problem and not for the wedding of his daughter? A He came alone. He wanted to marry the girl in his own place. He came to Baba for his health problem. Baba cured him in three days and after that he returned home.
[Uddhao again tells the same story, explaining it further].
Q I read in Narasimhaswami's book Sri Sai Baba's Charters and Sayings that once Sai Baba explained a chapter of the Bhagavadgītā to your father, Shyama, which he was reciting aloud. After that, Baba told him to come every day to the masjid so that he would explain to him the following chapters. 6 Do you remember this? A It was not the Bhagavadgītā, it was the Viṣṇusahasranām.
Uddhao explains: One other saint came here and went to stay in the Mārutī temple. He had a book with him, the Viṣṇusahasranām. He came from Haridvar. Baba took the book from his sack while he was not present, that is, when he had gone to the bazaar. Baba then gave the book to my father Shyama, telling him to read it every day in the masjid. Baba said: "If you want any explanation or clarification ask me". Q: When your father went to the masjid with the Viṣṇusahasranām, did Baba explain the meaning of the text to him, or rather did Shyama stay there reading it in silence? A Sometimes, when Shyama wanted to understand the meaning of the Viṣṇusahasranām more deeply and wanted clarifications on some points, then he went to Baba and asked him. Baba would then answer and explain the meaning to him. Q Baba would then explain the text? T Yes, yes. He would explain it to him. He would clarify the meaning by saying: "It is so and so…". Q Thus, it was a kind of teaching? T Yes, a teaching for Shyama. 7 Uddhao remembers: When I was six years old my father was bitten by a snake. He was not able to reach the masjid alone, so the villagers went to Baba and told him what had happened. Baba said: "Come on, get him here. I will see to it". As soon as they brought Shyama to the masjid, Baba got angry with him, shouting: "I told you not to go to that house". Instead, Shyama had gone there and was bitten by the snake. Baba continued to shout with a loud voice for a long time. Then, after two or three hours the snake's poison came down and Shyama was cured. Baba cured him by shouting loudly, just like that. Q Did Baba send the poison away with his shouts? A Yes, by shouting loudly. 8 Uddhao adds: The little finger of Shyama's hand turned black, and remained black until he died. Q Did it become black due to the snake's bite? Why did his little finger turn black? T Because the snake had bitten him right in that point. Q Did this cause him any trouble? A Nothing. No trouble, no pain. 9 Q Would you like to add anything else concerning Sai Baba, your father, or your own experiences?  Baba,155 (ch. 10,. Sai Baba himself set the example by practicing the uninterrupted repetition of Allāh's name, day and night.
8 As in other accounts, the belief is that Sai Baba's shouts and foul language were directed toward the evil agent -in this case, the snake's poison -and that in this way he drove away all negativities.
half way my money finished and I was left with only ten or twelve rupees. At that time, the cost for the return ticket from Haridvar to Shirdi was of about fifty or sixty rupees. Therefore, I became very upset and worried. Every day I did the pūjā of the photo of Baba. As I prayed to him, I asked: "What shall I do now? I am left with only ten, twelve rupees, how shall I go back to Shirdi?". Then some people arrived from the Khandesh area, near Malegaon and Jalgaon. These people asked me: "What has happened to you? Where do you come from?". I was always weeping… Then I explained my situation to them. They told me not to worry and that they would arrange all things for me. After lunch I went to rest. Around noon a man came asking about my problem. He said: "Why do you cry and despair?". I again explained the situation. Then he said: "Don't you recognize me?". I said: "No, I have never seen you before". He replied: "I am from Shirdi!". He told me the name of his family, Chadubaya, and that he came from the village of Ardhanda, near Shirdi. He was also a devotee of Baba. He asked me how much money I needed, and then gave me two hundred rupees.
Q That was a lot of money then, wasn't it? T Yes, a lot.
Uddhao continues: I asked for his address, where he lived. He told me his name was Baburao Chadubaya of Ardhanda, and that his family was devoted to Baba. He then gave me his address. In this way, thanks to this man and the money he lent me, I was able to return to Shirdi. Once back, I sent a postal money order of two hundred rupees to repay my debt, but after ten to fifteen days the money order was returned to me.
Q How come? A That man was not living there, at that address. Thus the money was sent back to me. Q Did this happen because the man was simply absent or because he didn't live there at all? A Because he didn't exist. There was nobody in that village by that name. Q Then who do you think that man was? A I was never able to find out. Once a Police Inspector came to Shirdi to have darshan of Baba and I asked him if he knew the man or that address in Ardhanda, but he confirmed to me that the address didn't exist. Q Was this a līlā 10 of Baba? A Yes. Līlā, līlā. T Uddhao thinks it was a miracle. A līlā. Q And thus he got two hundred rupees? T Yes, two hundred rupees. Q When did all this happen? A In 1944.

Antonio Rigopoulos
Excerpts From My Diary 9 a.m., in the Leṇḍī gardens. Got up at 7:40 a.m. I was finally able to talk to Homi Baba, though very briefly. To me he seems quite a secondary figure. Anyway, his voice adds itself to all the other voices. I took a picture of him when he shows his chest in public. At 10 a.m. will try to go visit Bappa Baba again at his home. 4:40 p.m., at my hotel room. Interviewed Bappa Baba for the second time. We had a nice conversation which lasted for about half an hour: thus he could elaborate on the issues that were touched during our first meeting. I was very grateful for this opportunity.
After seeing Bappa Baba, I and Swami Shekhar Rao went once more to the Śrī Upāsnī Kanyākumārī Sthān in Sakuri but Shri S.N. Tipnis was a real disappointment and he dismissed me as quickly as possible. It was very unpleasant. But I had Sati Godavari Mataji's darshan and she explicitly granted her blessings to me and my research work. I treasure this as the most important thing and don't need anything else. This was surely my last visit to Sakuri. Never mind if I couldn't have an interview with Mataji. We came back to Shirdi right away and around 1 p.m. I had lunch at my hotel. I then took a shower and a nap.
10:30 p.m., at my hotel room. Went to the Sansthān and bought twenty old issues of the monthly magazine Sai Leela spanning between 1975 and 1983, plus various photos. I also made a yearly subscription to Sai Leela for just sixty rupees which is excellent. Baldev Girme kindly translated from Marāṭhī into English the contents of an article of Swami Ram Baba which appeared in the Sai 10 Shirdi-Sakuri-Shirdi Thursday, October 24, 1985 Leela issue of April 1984. I recorded his translation and indeed it is quite interesting. Baldev Girme has the highest regard for Swami Ram Baba. He pointed out to me that in the book Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahamsa Yogananda there is a picture of Yogananda with Shri Yukteshwar surrounded by various other people, among whom is a young Swami Ram Baba. 1 He also said that during a meeting he had with Swami Ram Baba, the latter advised him to read a book by G.K. Pradhan titled Toward the Silver Crests of Himalayas. Baldev Girme recommended me to read it too, since he views it as especially important. I then had the privilege of having dinner at Uddhao Madhavrao Deshpande's house. It was wonderful to spend the evening in the company of Uddhao and his wife. They invited me to have lunch at their house tomorrow as well! I will take this special opportunity to interview Uddhao a little more. This evening I also went to the sacred nīm tree of the Gurusthān to offer some udī. All offerings are burnt into the fire. I am so very grateful since everything is going in the best possible way. It's all for today.
1 The photo was taken in December 1935 in the large courtyard of the ashram of Shri Yukteshwar in Serampore, on the occasion of the last solstice festival. However, it is not clear to me who is Swami Ram Baba among the numerous people present; see Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi, 33.

Brief conversation with Homi Baba.
Homi Baba says: I won second prize in an All-India Competition as a bodybuilder. I was directed to become a faqīr thanks to Baba's grace. This happened in 1950, when he blessed me. Then and only then did I come in contact with Baba. Baba did this grace to me. Everybody told me I should go to Shirdi, but I didn't even know where Shirdi was in those days. In the end, I reached this place. I saw Sai Baba's image inside the temple and then I realized that I had found my Sadguru, I intuited this clearly. Baba told me: "You want me or money?". Then I said: "No, I don't need money. I want Baba". I added: "You can take even every drop of my blood, but I want Baba only. Nothing else". From that moment, Baba's grace was on me. Baba asked me to grow a beard and to wear the same dress which he wore. Baba was not alive, he told me these things in vision. Baba, since 1950, has been guiding me regularly. I have received periodical messages from him. In these messages, Baba asked me to keep a beard and to wear a dress like the one he used to wear. [The interpreter later told me that Homi Baba comes from a very rich family and that he was a landlord prior to his conversion to religious life] In Shirdi, Bappa Baba's house, 10:15 a.m.

Second conversation with Bappa Baba, son of Lakshman Ratna Parke who was the village priest and astrologer and the maternal uncle of Madhavrao Deshpande alias Shyama.
Q What would you like to add about Sai Baba? A Baba came to Shirdi in the same way Kabīr, 3 Namdev Maharaj 4 or Jnaneshvar Maharaj 5 came in the world. They all came on earth without anyone knowing from where they came from. So, with Baba, it was the same. Nobody knows anything about his native place nor about who his parents were. Q What do you remember of Sai Baba? A One Gopalrao Gund, from Satara, once came to Baba for blessings in order to have issue, since he could not have children. Baba gave that man only the ash of the dhūnī, which is called udī, and he told him to take it with water. Thanks to this blessing of Baba, a child was born to Mister Gund and his wife soon after. Q What do you think of Baba's teaching? A There was no teaching. After having had a son, Mister Gund came back to Shirdi and had some repairs done to the masjid since it was in bad condition. As a sign of gratitude to Baba, he repaired the masjid. 6 Q Is it true that Baba would often get angry at people? A If some devotee made mistakes, then Baba would get angry at him and would tell him something. Sometimes Baba would get mad at the villagers or at devotees when they made mistakes. Sometimes there was beating also, if he got very angry. Baba, however, did this also as a kind of joke. Q How would you describe Baba's temperament? A Sometimes angry, sometimes loving. When a devotee or any other person was in a good mood, then only would Baba allow him to enter the masjid. If they were in a bad mood, then he did not allow them to enter, he did not like them to come in. T This is an important point about Baba. Q Is it true that Baba would always sit keeping his typical posture with his leg crossed? A Baba knew each and everything of all people. Baba would sometimes sit on the stone, and then he would keep that posture. Q Did he keep that posture only when sitting on that stone? T Not always, not always. Sometimes.  6 In fact, it is reported that in the mid-1890s Gopalrao Gund had some building materials delivered to the mosque with the intention that they should be used to repair it, but Sai Baba had them redirected to a couple of local temples that were in need of restoration; see Williams,Experiencing Sai Baba's Shirdi: A Guide,32. ers, on my body". After having had this dream, however, Das Ganu Maharaj did not reach Shirdi in time, that is, before Baba's death. After a few days Das Ganu arrived in Shirdi but Baba had already taken samādhi. This was the way it went. Only then did Das Ganu Maharaj understand the meaning of the dream, of what he had seen in the dream, of why Sai Baba had told him: "Come quick, come quick to Shirdi and place a garland on my body". 10 T Das Ganu Maharaj was one of Baba's friends, not just a devotee. He was among Baba's closest friends. That's why Baba called Das Ganu to come and see him. Q Did Baba sing bhajans? A At times Baba used to sing bhajans but alone, not with others. Baba always sang something, but only when he was alone, not with other people around. Q Did the devotees sing? A Yes. The devotees sang bhajans together. Baba sat in their midst but he did not sing with them, he simply listened. When he wanted to sing, he sang alone. Q Did Baba shave his beard? A Baba would trim his beard, by cutting it short up to one inch. Instead his head was completely shaven. Once in six months a barber came and shaved Baba.

Summary of a short speech by Swami Ram Baba, which appeared in the monthly newsletter Sai Leela of April 1984. Shri Baldev Girme translated it for me from Marāṭhī into English, as well as its accompanying article.
Swami Ram Baba says: There is an episode which is mentioned in the Shri Sai Satcharita, in the twenty-third adhyāya. 11 There was a Swami who possessed knowledge of all the Shastras but didn't have a steady mind, nor was he able to absorb himself in meditation. 12  12 This was Swami Ram Baba himself, who was a student of yoga at the time.
13 Flat unleavened bread made of sorghum, millet or maze flour. The staple food of rural Maharashtra.
14 In Brahmanical legal texts, onion is one of the few prohibited vegetables (together with mushroom, garlic, some kinds of leek, and secretions from tree barks).
15 A highly influential Bengali poet and novelist, Rabindranath Tagore  was the first Indian to be awarded the Nobel prize for literature.

Antonio Rigopoulos
Maestri, testi e fonti d'Oriente | Masters, Texts and Sources of the East 2 171 Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 163-172 all the pradakṣiṇās 16 of the sacred rivers. For example, the Ganga, the Narmada, the Godavari. According to Swami Ram Baba, Shri Sai Baba never gave any mantra to anyone. But nowadays there are Babas and saints who seek to give mantras. Swami Ram Baba doesn't like this, since he doesn't believe in them. Swami Ram Baba says that after having done pradakṣiṇā of the sacred rivers, the sādhaka obtains the mantra by himself, spontaneously. Swami Ram Baba narrates some of his personal experiences. In doing this, he avoids making use of the pronoun 'I'. Thus, he narrates in an impersonal fashion: "Ram used to do this…", "Ram will go to Bombay to-morrow…", "Ram will see you tomorrow…", etcetera. Swami Ram Baba rarely speaks about himself. He says that Īśvara is one, that God is one and that He is omnipresent. Shekhar Rao will try to have a few more conversations with local people and then I'll go to Uddhao's house for lunch. I plan to buy a few other things here in Shirdi. I also plan to go back to the Sansthān so as to get some last information (on Basheer Baba, etcetera) and also say goodbye to them. I also would like to take some last photos and hope to be granted the grace of getting some udī from the dhūnī to take away with me. Today is practically my last day here in Shirdi.
1:15 p.m. Had an excellent morning, truly blessed. We were able to interview Shri Uttamrao Patil, sixty years old, who is the son of Tatya Kote Patil. It was a good talk. We then interviewed Martanda Baba for the second time: it was a wonderful and quite long conversation and I came to learn many interesting things. At his house we also briefly talked with a woman devotee, Shrimati Devaki Davan. We then interviewed Uddhao for the third time and had lunch at his house. I bought some other books as well as some music cassettes of local bhajans and ārtīs. I started the recording of my seventh mini-cassette which means that so far I have accumulated around eleven hours of interviews, which is a result beyond all my expectations. I really didn't imagine that my research could be so successful.
This afternoon I'll try to buy a few more things, take a few more photos, get some udī, and talk to the people of the Sansthān. I leave Shirdi with a remarkable wealth of knowledge. I also made new friends. These contacts will surely be useful in the future. and also of the masjid, from 1945 to 1965. After that, a trust was formed, an economic administration was organized to take care of things. Q So before your father had done all this? A Yes, certainly. When he was living, he was the first member of the temple, which was under his tutelage. Then, after his death, his son continued in the same function. Q And subsequently the Sansthān took over? A Yes. Q In what year was the Sansthān formed? A The local government formed it in 1965. Q So it is only twenty years that the Sansthān is at work, and the government is directing it? A Yes, that's so. For twenty years. Q How has life in Shirdi changed in all these years? A After the government started conducting things here, many things changed. So many things changed, in respect to how they functioned in the old days. The government has changed many things. Q Do you think that things changed for the best, or do you think they were better before? A It was better before, in those days. Q You mean that things were better in your father's time, when he took care of things? A No, no, the government is doing a good job. They have innovated and changed many things, they have made progress and improvements in the temple, in the masjid, in the bhojanghar… Q Therefore, you are satisfied with how the Sansthān is running things here in Shirdi? A Yes, I am very satisfied, happy. The government is doing a fine job. I Thank you.
4 Shri Uttamrao Patil later told us that his father received this bag from Sai Baba in the year 1912. He cut a small piece of it and kindly gave it to me, to treasure as a precious relic.

Figure 81
My guide and interpreter Swami Shekhar Rao displays the bag that Sai Baba gifted to Tatya Kote Patil, treasured by his son Shri Uttamrao Patil

Figure 82
A small piece of the bag that Sai Baba gifted to Tatya Kote Patil. Generously, Shri Uttamrao Patil offered it to me as a precious relic 11:30 a.m. Said goodbye to the people of the Sansthān and to everyone. It was a nice farewell. Got some more news on both Sri Narayan Baba and Basheer Baba. I visited for the last time all the sacred sites of the village: the Samādhi Mandir, the Leṇḍī gardens, the Gurusthān, the masjid/ Dvārakāmāī, the cāvaḍī, the Marūtī temple, and the Lakṣmī temple. I also went to the samādhi of Lakshmibai Tukaram Shinde and had a brief conversation with her niece. Paid all my bills and dues. I'm now left with three hundred and thirty rupees. I bought another copy of the fundamental Shri Sai Satcharita, which is the 'Bible' for all Sai Baba devotees. Think I have done all that I was supposed to do. I'll have lunch around noon. My bus leaves Shirdi at 1 p.m. and the arrival in Bombay is scheduled at 9 p.m. Now I will go say goodbye to my guide Swami Shekhar Rao and reward him as he deserves. 1 Thus ends my stay in holy Shirdi, of which I'll always treasure unforgettable memories.
1 When we said goodbye, Swami Shekhar Rao was so kind that he insisted on offering me a book which was among his few, most cherished possessions: the Sāī Gītā (The Song of One, Immortal Life).

Information about Basheer Baba and Sri Narayan Baba furnished by members of the Shirdi Sansthān.
Basheer Baba died two or three years ago, in 1982 or 1983, we don't remember exactly. This is certain, because he was about to make a visit to Shirdi, coming from Hyderabad, as he often did. He died a few days before his departure. He wasn't very old; he couldn't have been more than forty-two or forty-three years old. As to Sri Narayan Baba, we can give you this little leaflet that concerns his yātrā 2 of this year, 1985, his usual yātrā, since he does it every year. These two persons are considered by us of the Sansthān as just devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba; as men who contribute, with their personalities, to diffuse the teaching, the figure, and the cult of Sai Baba in India and in the rest of the world.
As to the supposed supernatural contacts or medium relationship between them and Shirdi Baba, or even of an avatāric relationship of Basheer Baba with Sai Baba, we don't wish to talk about it. We maintain silence, that's all.

Excerpts From My Diary
11:30 a.m. Yesterday I reached Bombay around 9:45 p.m. The bus trip was long and tiresome, the road being quite bumpy. On the way we halted in Sakuri and Nasik, where among other things I saw an interesting temple, relatively modern. Once in Bombay I took a taxi and I arrived at the Agrawals' home in Marine Drive around 10 p.m. Their hospitality is, as always, wonderful (as usual, I must abandon my Western notion of time and adapt to their rhythms which are quite slow and unpredictable; sometimes I'm just stuck waiting for hours and no one shows up and nothing happens!). Had a good night sleep and this morning had a good breakfast. The weather and the temperature are fine. It will be good for me to stay here a few days and rest a while after my intense field research in Shirdi. 4 p.m. What amazes me is the Agrawals' habit of fixing lunch (and dinner) for me alone: the women of the house insist that I should sit at the table and eat first, all by myself (Western style, i.e. with plates, knife and fork, and not eating with my hands as Indians do). Only after I have been served and have finished eating, they take their lunch (and dinner) all together. In the beginning this made me feel uncomfortable: everyone seemed to be staring at me, especially the children who are most straightforward and interested in me because of my 'otherness'. Indeed, the children as well as the women of the house are very curious about me and often laugh. Now I'm more used to it though it is still an awkward feeling. They also pointed out that for them it is strange that a foreigner be so interested in their culture and religion: my interest in Sai Baba, in his life and teachings, and in Maharashtrian pilgrimage sites such as Pandharpur, Jejuri, etc. is something which astounds them and at the same time makes them feel proud.

Bombay
Sunday, October 27, 1985 They are eager to see if I like their food and eat everything they serve. I wonder if this has something to do with caste rules of purity and pollution and the taboos of commensality. Being a foreigner, a non-Hindu, I'm obviously an outsider (mleccha) and therefore utterly impure. Perhaps the fact of serving me first and the rule that I should eat all by myself serves a double purpose: that of highlighting their hospitality toward a guest -who according to Hindu tradition is sacred and should be honored as God himself -and at the same time that of isolating an impure, casteless individual so that he may not contaminate their own food and vessels. I also noticed that the food they ate was different from mine and cooked at a different time (and I suspect they use different pans when they cook for themselves). But of course this is not something that I can ask them: it would be inappropriate and I would just embarrass them.
This afternoon H.J. Agrawal (who is back in Bombay), his elder brother N.J. Agrawal and I plan to go visit Swami Ram Baba at his residence in Bombay. On the other hand, I don't think I should try to go see Sri Narayan Baba again. 1 He would probably tell me things that I already know and at this point I don't consider him to be crucial for my research.
By the way, the image of Sai Baba in his typical pensive mood and crosslegged position is ubiquitous in Bombay -in shops, on cars, on walls -and the number of small shrines and temples dedicated to him is impressive. 7:30 p.m. This afternoon we went to see Swami Ram Baba but unfortunately it was not possible to talk to him. Anyway, we were able to fix an appointment for tomorrow evening at 7:30, which is excellent. On the way back I stopped at Juhu beach near Marine Drive and took a nice walk along the seashore, although it was quite dirty and crowded. This evening we will have dinner at a nearby restaurant. Tomorrow I'll definitely need to change some dollars into rupees.
N.J. Agrawal, the elder brother of H.J. Agrawal, is a fervent bhakta of Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi (from the time of his retirement, he lives permanently at his ashram of Prasanthi Nilayam, at Apt. W5 A11). He spoke to me of the 'ego' of the devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba due to the fact that most of them don't recognize or are reluctant to recognize Sai Baba's present incarnation, i.e. Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba. He thinks that the reason for their refusal to acknowledge him as Sai Baba is that if they did accept him the Shirdi Sansthān and Shirdi itself as a pilgrimage place would lose much of their significance and appeal. It was quite an interesting conversation.

Interviews of the Day
In Bombay, Swami Ram Baba's house, 8 p.m.

Summary of a meeting with Swami Ram Baba at his Bombay apartment located in Bandra, Sheesh Mahal Building 9, Pali Hill 5-A, Demonty Road, behind Macronoells Roof Garden.
I recorded these comments soon after the meeting ended. An extraordinary experience. Truly a saintly man. I did not record his words since he didn't allow me to do so. It would have spoiled the religious atmosphere I suppose. Anyway, it has been a highly spiritual experience. Swami Ram Baba talked for quite a long time. Swami Ram Baba is said to be one hundred and twenty-five years old now, having been born around 1860. 2 However, he seems to be half his age: his skin is smooth like that of a young man. He is very tall with a white, long, flowing beard. His hair is thinning white. He wears an orange robe. He sits on a comfortable chair and is able to speak very fluently in English, and apparently he also masters several Indian languages. He spoke for quite a long time in general terms on the subjects of spirituality, on the search for inner peace, and on various fundamental issues… As he said: "Head, heart, hands, tongue". About Shirdi Sai Baba, he said that there are no words for describing his personal relationship with him, nor is it possible to describe Shirdi Sai Baba's greatness. He literally stated: "There are no words", thus agreeing with what most of the villagers in Shirdi told me. Swami Ram Baba laid emphasis on the implicit, fundamental need for bhakti, devotion, and for total surrender, śaraṇāgati, which one must have toward the teacher, toward Shirdi Sai. These are the crucial elements. He then elaborated a bit on two other basic points: śraddhā, faith, and sabūrī, patience. He spoke of faith and patience as the two essential qualities. He also said that in his experience Sai Baba is the All, the Absolute, God. The experience which these avatāric personalities can produce in the heart of devotees is incommunicable. Swami Ram Baba said that it is only through their grace that one is capable of catching a glimpse of their splendor, of their teaching, and thus grow in one's sādhanā. Swami Ram Baba has very piercing eyes, and truly, in his presence, one feels he is close to God. He didn't want to speak about his own personal experiences with Sai Baba. He simply said: "There are no words". When he said so, he closed his eyes, as if in a state of profound introspection, and would repeat: "There are no words, words would just ruin and dispel the essence". He also said that, when one goes to Shirdi, one should concentrate on this essential only, that is, on Shirdi Sai. One must look at him in the eyes as soon as he or she enters the masjid, without caring about the people there, the noise, and all the rest. All these things are mere distractions. Thus one must concentrate on the essential, looking at Sai Baba in the eyes, having his darshan, going to the kākaḍ ārtī at 5:15 in the morning, and concentrat- ing one's mind on his image, on his samādhi. This is true experience; all other things must be left behind.
In Swami Ram Baba's apartment there were also other people, devotees of his I suppose. On the walls of the room there were many pictures of Shirdi Sai, as well as of Jesus and other Indian saints.
In his way of speaking, he showed a universalist approach. He said: "Truth is only one, and it is we who give it different names, different interpretations. In reality, it is one only". He told us that Shirdi Sai, as all avatāric personalities, was someone who had renounced everything. That is, he had died to himself, had totally renounced his ego, and precisely for this reason he lived to the full. Swami Ram Baba also added: "And he is present. Shirdi Sai has not gone away, but is always present here with us. With me. Even to talk about him means to diminish his reality". I didn't take any photographs of Swami Ram Baba. Indeed, I had asked him if I could take one but his answer was: "It is better to do 'click' in your heart, that's the appropriate place". This small incident brought to my mind an episode reported by Narasimhasvami in his Charters and Sayings: Sai Baba answered somewhat similarly to some boys who wanted to take a photograph of him. 4 Swami Ram Baba also spoke about Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba since Mr. H.J. Agrawal, who accompanied me, mentioned him saying that he and his family are devoted to him. He seemed pleased to know that. He said he considers Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba as a divine incarnation, an avatāra, and that he is favorably impressed with the institutions he has founded. He said: "Sathya Sai Baba gives food to the poor and education, through his schools, to the minds of the youth". Moreover: "In front of Sathya Sai Baba, as with Sai Baba of Shirdi and others, one must come in an attitude of wanting to listen, so as to understand, comprehend". Just before we left, he told us: "I give you my blessings, but since you are going to Puttaparthi, try to get the most out of the experience by being close to the Swami".
In what Ram Baba said one could feel a sense of spiritual oneness, a oneness of feelings. His main point was that the experience of Sai Baba is ineffable, and that it is only through Sai's grace that one can attain blessings, teachings, and final realization. Speaking in more general terms, Swami Ram Baba referred to the thousands of books and messages which create more confusion than intelligence in man. He said that the mind constitutes man's greatness, and that man must learn to use it with discrimination, viveka, since the mind is the true computer. All other computers are pure instruments which only mind can make use of. It is the mind that took us to the moon. Everything is science, he said. Science must not be given a negative connotation. It is man who makes it good or bad. Even defecating, eating, talking, living… everything is science. Hearing Swami Ram Baba speak of science and computers at his venerable age of one hundred and twenty-five years with such mental agility and acumen left me stupefied. Indeed, he sets a remarkable example of one living in the present, who is not imprisoned in the memories of his long past. Speaking of books, he said they should be 'digested' slowly and, above all, they should cost less. One who is really desirous of learning cannot afford them; on the other hand, he who is rich buys books, but then puts them on a shelf of his library and doesn't even look at them. He spoke in general terms of the importance of attaching oneself to a teacher or to God himself, the Sadguru who lies within, of learning how to listen to his voice in silence, the inner voice.
Other devotees present at the meeting asked Swami Ram Baba how and when a person knows that he is really on the spiritual path. He replied that it is like asking a man why he is hungry. If he is hungry he eats, it is natural. And so it is on the spiritual path: there is a hunger and an urgency, an intense desire for union with God, for self-realization, for the elimination of the ego. crossed my mind that he might have lost himself years ago in this crowd, never to be able to find his way out of the bazaar! I wondered if something similar could ever happen to me and I found myself laughing at this thought, though admittedly it was quite a nervous laughter. I then went to visit the Prince of Wales Museum, which houses some wonderful sculptures of Hindu deities as well as some Buddhist and Mughal masterpieces, and later the Hanging Gardens and the awesome Jain temple nearby. Before dinner, I had another interesting conversation with N.J. Agrawal. We talked about Rajneesh 2 and his being arrested by American authorities. In the past he went twice to visit his ashram in Pune and noted how ninety per cent of his followers were Westerners. He said there were lots of dances and songs going on there, interspersed with the guru's philosophical discourses. He emphasized how Rajneesh has always had a bad reputation in India since his teachings are contrary to the Hindu tradition.
I then asked N.J. Agrawal to tell me something about himself. I was struck when he told me that he knows the Bhagavadgītā and twelve or thirteen Upaniṣads by heart, and that he recites them in the original Sanskrit every week. In order to recite the Bhagavadgītā and the Upaniṣads within each week, a devotional practice known as saptāhapārayaṇa, he follows a strict schedule which keeps him busy for a few hours every day. He is a profoundly religious man and his knowledge of these sacred texts by heart is truly remarkable. 3 With regard to his devotion for Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba, he told me that the guru once warned him that he had a brain tumor and that he should go as soon as possible to the hospital to have it removed. However, when he went to a hospital in Bombay and the doctors examined him with their sophisticated machines they could find no trace of the tumor and concluded that he was all right. So much relieved, he returned to Puttaparthi but Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba insisted saying that he had a brain tumor and that he should undergo a more thorough examination. The doctors in Bombay finally discovered that he indeed had a small brain tumor and were able to intervene right away and cure him, the tumor being at its initial stage of development. Thus, he told me, Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba saved his life. Besides this, he said that the guru 'materialized' for him several items, such as a beautiful ring with a green gemstone which he always wears and which he showed to me.
The entire Agrawal family is devoted to Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba and every year in December they go stay in his Prasanthi Nilayam ashram for two-three weeks. Every Thursday afternoon, along with many other bhaktas, they hold a bhajan session in his honor and they often go to Puttaparthi to have his darshan. The husband of H.J. Agrawal's daughter showed me a beautiful Śiva liṅga that Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba 'materialized' for his wife: within it one can discern the guru's own image! He told me that initially a dazzling light emanated from it which illumined their pūjā room. After some time, however, the light came to fade away. It is regularly worshipped and, as per the guru's instruction, its base is always kept soaked in 2 Born a Jain, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh  began his career as a teacher of philosophy but at age thirty-five became a self-appointed guru. His ashram in Pune attracted large crowds.
3 Even his younger brother H.J. Agrawal was a very pious man. When I was in Khamgaon, he fasted every day on account of the Navarātri festival, which had begun on October 14.

Antonio Rigopoulos
water since he told them that they should drink this water daily. His assurance is that this holy water will alleviate all tensions and give them śānti, peace. I was also given the privilege of drinking it. The husband of H.J. Agrawal's daughter then showed me a diamond ring that the guru 'materialized' for him -said to avert evil forces -as well as a japamālā, that is, a rosary, that he 'materialized' for his wife. They also treasure one of Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba's orange robes, one that he actually wore: he recently gave it to their son, who is studying in one of the guru's schools in Prasanthi Nilayam.

Conversation with Professor Narayan Kasturi, eighty-eight years old, secretary and biographer of Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba.
On Thursday, November 7, 1985, at the end of his morning lecture, I took the courage to go up to Professor Kasturi and present myself. I explained to him that I came from Venice, Italy, that I was doing research on the life and teachings of Shirdi Sai Baba for my BA thesis, and that I had arrived at Puttaparthi directly from Shirdi where I was able to interview various people on the subject and, most importantly, a few old villagers who had known the faqīr in their youth. I then expressed to him my wish to interview him as part of my study. I told him that I had read his books wherein he strove to prove the continuity and veritable identity of the two Sai Babas, and that I hoped to deepen my understanding relative to the peculiar 'three-in-one' avatāric descent of Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai Baba, and the future Prema Sai Baba. Professor Kasturi appeared pleased at my request, and said he would be delighted to discuss these issues with me. Significantly, the first word he uttered when I said "Shirdi Sai Baba" was "Kabīrpanthī", a term that identifies the follower of the spiritual path supposedly founded by Kabīr, the popular fifteenth-century poet and mystic of Benares upholder of nirguṇabhakti, i.e. devotion to the formless divine principle. Though there is no historical evidence of any connection between the Kabīrpanth and the Shirdi faqīr, scattered references in the latter's hagiographic sources identify him with Kabīr. Shirdi Sai Baba himself is reported saying that he was Kabīr in one of his previous lives, that Kabīr was his creed or religion, and also that Kabīr had been his guru.

Prasanthi Nilayam
Friday, November 8, 1985 Professor Kasturi emphasized to me that Shirdi Sai Baba had to be understood in the light of the god Dattātreya, and he added that I should read the book Dattātreya: The Way and the Goal, by Sri Jaya Chamarajendra Wadiyar Bahadur. As kind a person as he was, he immediately agreed to grant me an interview even though he had not been well during the past week, suffering from severe back pain. He invited me to come see him the next day in the afternoon after darshan, around 5 p.m., at his small apartment -South Block 1, no. 8 -located just behind the ashram's Mandir. The conversation was in English, with no need of any interpreter. Kasturi and I were alone and there was no interruption in our dialogue.
Q Sai Ram. 1 Good afternoon, Professor Kasturi, and thank you so much for allowing me the privilege of this conversation with you. Right from the start, I would like to ask you the following question: what do you think is the most important point one needs to consider when approaching the issue of Shirdi Sai Baba's identity and, in turn, of Sathya Sai Baba's link or oneness with him? A The answer is Dattātreya. From Dattātreya, also known as Datta, a tradition of avadhūtas can be traced. There is a tradition of avadhūtas in our country. 2 Shirdi Sai Baba was an avadhūta. Avadhūta means one who has destroyed all desires. Dhū means dust, so an avadhūta is 1 Lit. 'Sai as Rām'. The principal expression of greeting among ashramites and Sathya Sai Baba's followers. It is both a mantra and an epithet bestowed upon the guru by devotees and constantly repeated along with the visualization of his form.
2 Dattātreya and his incarnations are commonly referred to as avadhūtas given their ascetic excellence. one who has reduced everything to dust. 3 Concerning Dattātreya and this movement of avadhūtas, it should be noted that there are many Dattātreya temples all over the country. And Swami 4 has asked a number of people to go and reside in particular Dattātreya temples, saying: "You go and remain there, don't move from there". So here you see Swami's connection with Dattātreya. He often remembers and emphazises it. Q I am here reminded of the episode you were mentioning yesterday during your lecture, when Swami was in Ooty. 5 Could you tell me about it in more detail? A That's when Swami said: "I shall show you my real form". I myself was not present there. I know that Swami had just arrived at a local resthouse after coming down the Nilgiri Hills, and a group of students who accompanied him wanted to take his photograph. They had a Polaroid camera with them. After they had taken two or three pictures of him, Swami told them: "Wait, wait, I shall give you my real form". Swami stood straight and when the student was about to click one lady moved forward to adjust his robe, because the robe was a little too high and she wanted to put it right over his foot, but then Swami loudly said: "No, no, don't touch me!". And then, in the photo of the Polaroid 3 Literally avadhūta means 'shaking off/removing [worldly ties]'. Kasturi appears to have had in mind Avadhūtagītā 8.8, where the syllable dhū is indicative of 'him whose limbs are grey with dust' (dhūlidhūsaragātrāṇi).
5 A wonderful resort in the Nilgiri Hills, 2,270 meters high, in the State of Tamil Nadu. Sathya Sai Baba used to spend part of the spring and summer here.

Figure 88
Bhagavan Shri Sathya Sai Baba in the 1980s

Figure 89
Prof. Narayan Kasturi, Bhagavan Shri Sathya Sai Baba's biographer, leaving Prasanthi Nilayam's lecture hall after one of his morning talks, November 1985 camera it was not Swami that came out but Dattātreya with his three heads, with the cow behind him and the four dogs surrounding him. Q This is the way Dattātreya is represented in the iconography, isn't it? A Yes, the picture came out like this. Therefore, you see how Swami is linked to the Dattātreya tradition. And Dattātreya is also mentioned in some of the bhajans that we sing here: Oṃ Sāī Datta, Oṃ Sāī Datta; Datta Guru, Datta Guru, Dattātreya Guru; etcetera. These names are often used. Q So what you wish to emphazise is that Sathya Sai Baba is an avatāra of Dattātreya, isn't it? A Yes, because he is all the three gods at the same time: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, and Śiva. Q The supreme trimūrti? A Yes, precisely. Q Sathya Sai Baba has said that he belongs to the Bharadvāja gotra and to the Āpastamba sūtra. Could you explain what this actually means, what is its significance? A Swami has indeed said that he belongs to this sūtra and gotra. This means that he was born into a family that has this sūtra and gotra. Gotra means that he descends by tradition from a certain seer, a certain ṛṣi. Every gotra has its own ṛṣi. Yet the three higher castes alone have a gotra, namely Brahmins, Kṣatriyas, and Vaiśyas. Gotra literally means cowshed; this is to say that any member of a gotra belongs to a particular clan. For example, I belong to the Kauṇḍinya gotra, the clan which originated from a ṛṣi called Kauṇḍinya. Therefore, also my Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 203-214 son will be of the Kauṇḍinya gotra and like that this has been going on generation after generation. It is the claim to belong to a particular ṛṣi's clan. Sūtra is a commentary on the Scriptures written by a certain individual. So, Swami belongs to the clan of Bharadvāja and for all rituals and rites he relies upon the commentary written by Āpastamba, who was another ṛṣi. Q I see, so this is the explanation…? A Yes. Swami said he would take birth into a family which has Bharadvāja as his ṛṣi. You must have read about the story Swami told of Śiva and Śakti, 6 of the dance of Śiva and Śakti. I Yes, I have read about it in your book Sathyam Sivam Sundaram.

Professor Kasturi says:
In the speech Swami gave on Gurupūrṇimā day, when he publicly cured himself of a stroke, he narrated how ṛṣi Bharadvāja once performed a sacrifice, a yāga, and wanted lord Śiva to attend in it. Then Śiva and Śakti promised him that they would come. And so he has now come as Śiva-Śakti, in order to fulfil the promise. So, this explains his link to Bharadvāja and Āpastamba. Concerning Dattātreya, please note that there are a number of people who worship him as their patron god. 7 Q Is Dattātreya popular throughout India? A I sometimes speak about Swami being Dattātreya himself. And in order to prove this identity I utilise stotras, hymns of praise, which concern Dattātreya and his worship, such as those composed by Śaṅkara 8 and other mystics and poets. There are many qualities belonging to Dattātreya that we can find in Swami. For example, in some stotras it is said that he takes various forms -bahurūpa -that is, he appears in various forms. 9 And Swami also appears in various forms. Sometimes, he will say: "I have been to your house and you didn't give me anything, although I begged to you". I This reminds me of Shirdi Sai Baba. 10 A Yes, it's the same. I remember an episode of when I was the principal of a College about two hundred miles off from here. 11 When we came to Puttaparthi, Swami told my wife: "What?! I came and shouted in front of your door, crying: 'Oh, oh', and you said: 'No, no! The master of the house is not at home now, so I can't give you anything'. Then I went and shouted in front of the principal's office -that is, my office! -but he al-6 Lit. 'energy', 'power'. The personification of the feminine principle, i.e. of the goddess or Devī, Śiva's consort.
8 Among the more than four hundred works traditionally ascribed to Śaṅkara (trad. 788-820), the founder of Advaita Vedānta, there are a few hymns in Dattātreya's praise such as the Dattātreyagurustavarāja, the Dattamahimākhyastotra, and the Dattabhujaṅgastotra.
9 This and the following attributes of Dattātreya are taken from the Purāṇas. During our conversation Kasturi held a book in his hands, possibly a nāmastotra anthology, and he sometimes read from it, though it was clear that he knew all these Dattātreya features by heart. I have not been able to identify any one hymn containing all the epithets he cites.
10 The sources report cases of Shirdi Sai Baba identifying himself with anonymous beggars as well as with animals, especially dogs. These stories were mentioned to me by a few of the old villagers of Shirdi. so didn't care for me". So, you see, like that Swami appears in various ways. 12 There were some people from Bombay that once came here and Swami told them: "Look! When I once came to your house begging for something you gave me an inferior type of grain, the one you keep aside to be given to beggars. You gave me that inferior type!". And when they protested and said: "No, no, we didn't do that Swami", he brought the grain out of thin air and showed it to them saying: "This is the stuff that you especially keep in a place in your house so that your children or somebody may give it to any beggar that comes near your door". So he appears in various forms, bahurūpa, as Dattātreya. Then there is another line of glory, a special characteristic of Dattātreya which you find in Swami: tatkṣaṇāt sarvagāmin, 'Immediately he appears in a number of places at the same time'. Appearing in a number of places at the same time is a characteristic which you will not find in the sahasranāmastotras of other gods, that is, in the hymns of the thousand names of other deities. Q So this is a special feature of Dattātreya? A Yes. This is an attribute of Dattātreya only. Of course, of all the gods it is said that they are sarvavyāpin, that is, omnipresent, as well as omnipotent, wholly blissful, and all that. But this kind of attribute, tatkṣaṇāt sarvagāmin, 'going to a number of places at the same time', is a unique attribute of Dattātreya. Another characteristic which is peculiar of Dattātreya and which we also find in Swami as well as in Shirdi Sai Baba is the following: "By your command fire comes down and storms stop". You might remember that episode in the life of Shirdi Sai Baba when flames got up very high and he, by saying, "Calm down, calm down", had them subside. 13 And then, think of this other attribute of Dattātreya: "Sometimes a yogī, sometimes a bhogī, sometimes a vairāgī", that is, bhogī means a person who bases his life on worldly things. At times he renounces the world as a yogī, at other times he binds himself to the world as a bhogī. 14 He also appears as a vairāgī, that is, as a person having renounced all things. These traits may be found in Shirdi Baba. For instance, at the time of his evening procession, when he was led to the place 15 where he used to sleep at alternate nights, he would wear special things and would be adorned with a crown, that is, a royal umbrella, etcetera. And also here in Puttaparthi, processions are celebrated with great pomp. So yogī and bhogī, both he is. And Swami also says that he will grant both bhukti and mukti, worldly enjoyments as well as liberation, freedom from rebirth. I The sources report that Shirdi Sai Baba granted children to childless couples as well as worldly prosperity to many people. 16 A Yes, people prayed to him in order to attain prosperity, mundane happiness. Even here, there is no barrier or separation: bhukti and mukti, 14 See Avadhūtagītā 7.9-10.
16 Progeny, especially male, is one of the most common graces that Indians seek from holy men.

Antonio Rigopoulos
interpretations of the Vedas for the modern man, and this is precisely what Swami does. As a matter of fact, Swami has explained the reason why he has incarnated, both in his discourses and in his songs. And the reason he has given is of course the traditional one: morality has gone down and there is the need to revive it; 21 people have lost love and are sunk in hatred, etcetera. So, in order to save them, he incarnates himself. Indeed, good men are not able to survive in an atmosphere of wickedness and so, in order to protect them, he comes down on earth. And then there is one other reason given for his incarnation, which is not found in any other avatāra with the exception of Dattātreya. And this is to reveal the true significance of the Scriptures: this is what Swami has said. And this is precisely a special qualification of Dattātreya as well as of Shirdi Sai Baba. 22 Another characteristic of Dattātreya which you find in Swami is the following: "One may be poor, may be a wise or a fool, he may even be stone-hearted, but nonetheless all are equally dear to him". 23 And this is true here as well as everywhere. One more attribute of Dattātreya which you see operating in Swami is remarkable: "He is able to transform people through gems, maṇi, as well as through mantras". This is a very important feature. That is to say, through the gift of precious gems or jewels -such as this ring I'm wearing and that Swami gave to me -as well as by giving mantras for recitation he is able to save people, to raise them up. 24 It is also said that he affects the transformation of people through superhuman powers, aiśvaryas, and through various blessings and boons. But maṇi is especially mentioned as one of Dattātreya's gifts. I I know that Shirdi Sai Baba often used to give money to his devotees. A Yes [laughing]. But please note that here I'm not referring to the English word 'money' but to the Sanskrit word maṇi, 'gem'. Q Yes, of course. In any case, by maṇi you mean all sorts of valuable stones, of precious gifts, don't you? A Yes, gifts like this one you can see here [he shows it to me]. Q Is this a rosary, a japamālā? A No, no, this is not a japamālā. It is a garland of nine precious stones, a navaratnamālā. Q Ah, it's really marvellous! I would like to ask you one other question.
Apparently, Shirdi Sai Baba spoke of Kabīr as being his guru and even claimed to have been Kabīr in one of his previous births. It is reported that when he was interrogated by a magistrate who asked him what his creed or religion was, he answered "Kabīr". 25 Now, Kabīr was the fa-21 When Kasturi says 'morality' he has in mind the notion of dharma and the avatāra theory of Bhagavadgītā 4.7-8.  324-33 (ch. 20, vv. 12-105).
23 The tenth name of Sathya Sai Baba's one hundred and eight names extols him as 'He who is dear to all', Oṃ Śrī Sarvajanapriyāya Namaḥ. Likewise, the sixty-seventh and sixty-eighth names extol him as 'The dear one' and 'He who is dear to his devotees', Oṃ Śrī Priyāya Namaḥ and Oṃ Śrī Bhaktapriyāya Namaḥ respectively.
24 It should be noted, however, that Shirdi Sai Baba never uttered any mantra in the ears of his devotees; see Narasimhaswami,Sri Sai Baba's Charters and Sayings,43. 25 See Narasimhaswami, Devotees' Experiences of Sri Sai Baba, 128-9.

Antonio Rigopoulos
Maestri, testi e fonti d'Oriente | Masters, Texts and Sources of the East 2 211 Oral Testimonies on Sai Baba, 203-214 mous fifteenth century poet-saint of Benares, the vanquisher of caste and religious divisions in the name of nirguṇabhakti, a devotion devoid of attributes. Why do you think Shirdi Sai Baba said so? What is in your opinion the significance of this link? A Kabīr was also part of the Dattātreya group. For instance, you must have heard of Akkalkot Maharaj 26 and of Manikprabhu 27 ; these were all avadhūtas who had some kind of inner contact with other spiritual beings. 28 Q Yes, I have heard about them as well as of other avadhūtas such as Gajanan Maharaj from Shegaon, in the Vidarbha region of Maharashtra. With all of them Shirdi Sai Baba was supposedly in spiritual contact. Do you mean to say that they are all linked to Dattātreya? A Yes, precisely. Q Were you in some way connected to Meher Baba before coming to Sathya Sai Baba? I have read in your preface to the first volume of Sathyam Sivam Sundaram that you came in contact with him. A Not much really. I just met him once, that's all. This happened when he was staying near Bangalore, in a big establishment. But I did not have any particular contacts with him. Q What did you think of him? A Well, I figured that he was dodging his mission. He kept silence for many years and the idea was that one day, when he would begin to speak, the whole world would change. But nothing ever happened.
Have you ever seen this? [he hands me the pages of a magazine article]. It is an interview which Swami gave to Mister R.K. Karanjia, a Bombay journalist of the magazine Blitz. He was a communist. He had read about Swami and thought he would verify for himself who he really was, so he came down here to Puttaparthi. He asked: "Swamiji, we would like to know something about your triple incarnation, past, present and future; that is, from Shirdi Sai Baba to Sathya Sai Baba up to the future Prema Sai Baba, as according to your prophecy". Swami replied: "First of all, you must grasp the complete oneness of the three incarnations with those of the past, like Rām and Kṛṣṇa. This is a difficult task: if people cannot understand the present, how can they comprehend the past? Every incarnation is full and complete in relation to the time, the environment, and the task. There is no distinction between the ways and the various appearances of God, such as Rām, Kṛṣṇa or Sai. Rām came to feed the root of truth". Then Mister Karanjia asked: "By the present avatāra you mean Sai Baba?". And Swami replied: "Yes, I incarnate from age to age". Karanjia further inquired: "But sceptics wonder why God should assume a human form. And why this task had to be divided into the three separate incarnations of Shirdi, Sathya and Prema Sai Baba". Swami answered: "The previous avatāra, Shirdi Sai Baba, laid the basis for secular integration and gave mankind the message that duty, that is, work, is God".
26 Famous for his miraculous powers and 'childlike' (bala) and 'mad' (unmatta) aspects, the saint of Akkalkot, also known as Swami Samarth, died in 1878. in it you will find out more information about Venkavadhuta and Venkusha. I Wonderful, thank you. In your books I have read that Sathya Sai Baba's sister and even his parents were granted visions of Shirdi Sai Baba and of various places in Shirdi. This would have taken place when Sathya was very young, precisely in order to confirm his connection, his identity with Shirdi Sai Baba. A Yes, yes. But it was Swami's mother, not the sister. The sister got a picture from Swami; she's got it even now! It is folded, since it was found behind or underneath a bag of jowar. 32 Besides the mother, there was also another lady who was granted visions by Swami, inside his own house. Swami told her: "Come, and I will show you Shirdi". And then she could actually see Shirdi Sai Baba sitting on his rock! Q Along the years several devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba, who knew him in the flesh, have come here to worship Sathya Sai Baba, recognizing his identity with him. For instance, I'm reminded of the rānī 33 of Chincholi. By the way, is she still alive? A No, she passed away. The only one who was in Shirdi in Sai Baba's times and is still alive, residing in Puttaparthi, is an old lady called Peddabottu. 34 Q Is she the one who is known as Shirdi Ma? A Yes, Shirdi Ma. You should go visit her at her house. She has written a book about her experiences with Shirdi Sai Baba and you might ask her a copy. It is written in Telugu, however. If you go see her and say "Shirdi Sai Baba" to her, she will understand that you want information on him and she might respond to you. 35 Q But she speaks only Telugu, doesn't she? A Yes [laughing], she speaks only Telugu. Q In conclusion, is there anything you would like to add about Dattātreya, Shirdi Sai Baba or Sathya Sai Baba which you feel is important? A No, nothing else. I have told you all the important points. I Dear Professor Kasturi, thank you so much for sharing all this information and precious memories. It has been an honor to have this opportunity to talk to you. Sai Ram. A Sai Ram.
31 Not in the sense that he wasn't anymore devoted to him. Kasturi means that when Venkavadhuta left the area and started roaming again, Kondama Raju did not follow him in his wanderings.
34 Lit. 'big dot'. The guru nicknamed her Peddabottu because of the impressive kuṃkum dot she used to wear on her forehead. Also known as Shirdi Ma, her real name was Gali Sharada Devi . She met Sathya Sai Baba for the first time in Uravakonda in 1940 and settled permanently in Prasanthi Nilayam in 1958. Back in 1917, during her last visit to Shirdi, Sai Baba would have told her that he would be reborn in Andhra Pradesh and that she would stay with him forever.
35 In November 1985 Shirdi Ma, aged ninety-seven, was ill and confined to her bed. Though Prof. Kasturi was so kind as to propose to accompany me to her house, I didn't have the chance to see her. She passed away the following year, on Christmas day of 1986. The title of her Telugu book is Sweeya Charithra and was issued in Prasanthi Nilayam in 1984. In 2003, it was translated into English by Sathya Sai Shree Lakshmi and titled Autobiography.
Our conversation lasted about an hour, and we could still hear the bhajans being sung in the Mandir. Professor Kasturi accompanied me to the door and we said goodbye. I remember asking for his blessings and he simply smiled. That was the last time I saw him. Indeed, this interview was one of Professor Kasturi's last testimonies before his death, which occurred on August 14, 1987, after a brief illness.
While at the ashram I carried with me in a small cellophane package the eight mini-cassettes with all the interviews I had collected in Shirdi, Sakuri, Bombay, and Prasanthi Nilayam -including this one with Professor Kasturi -hoping that Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba might bless them during darshan. On Thursday afternoon of November 14, during bhajans, I was sitting in first line in front of the Mandir and it so happened that the guru came out of his room for one more darshan. He walked straight toward me and graciously blessed me and my precious envelope. On this occasion he played a līlā, i.e. a trick. He repeatedly asked me: "What is this?", and when I replied: "Interviews with old devotees of Shirdi", he remained silent for a few moments and slapped me on my left shoulder. Unexpectedly, he then took the package from my hand and asked: "For me?", and while saying so he turned and started moving away. I had not anticipated that he could do this and for a second -a very long second! -my heart sank and I thought I had lost my invaluable 'treasure'. Terrified at the idea of losing the tapes, I loudly replied: "No, no Swami, for a blessing!". He then stepped back and, with a benign smile, returned the package to me with perfect nonchalance. It was a real lesson in detachment and a most powerful exchange which I will never forget.